Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

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Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:51 am

Supplementary note of 16 March 2012

This thread was started on 17 April 2009, over two and a half years before the time of the writing of this supplementary note.

FontCreator is being used to produce fonts to support research about developing an invention. The invention is a method to assist communication through the language barrier.

Over that time period there has been progress.

In order to gain an overview of the state of the research at the time of the writing of this supplementary note, readers might like first to read the following pdf documents.

locse027_four_simulations.pdf
locse027_four_simulations.pdf
(82.68 KiB) Downloaded 261 times


locse027_simulation_five.pdf
locse027_simulation_five.pdf
(28.65 KiB) Downloaded 235 times


The original text of an earlier supplementary note, unaltered, and the original text of the post of 17 April 2009, unaltered, follows, so that the historical record is conserved.

William Overington

16 March 2012

End of Supplementary note of 16 March 2012

----

Supplementary note of 7 December 2011

This thread was started on 17 April 2009, over two and a half years before the time of the writing of this supplementary note.

FontCreator is being used to produce fonts to support research about developing an invention. The invention is a method to assist communication through the language barrier.

Over that time period there has been progress.

In order to gain an overview of the state of the research at the time of the writing of this supplementary note, readers might like first to read the following pdf document.

locse021_three_simulations.pdf
(52.7 KiB) Downloaded 267 times


The original text of the post of 17 April 2009, unaltered, follows, so that the historical record is conserved.

William Overington

7 December 2011

End of Supplementary note of 7 December 2011

----

Some readers may have noticed the following posts in the archives of the Unicode Public Email List.

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0135.html

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0134.html

There are some other posts in the thread in the archive.

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... index.html

The experiment thus far involves the use of the U+F9001 character, which is a Private Use Area character located in plane 15 of the Unicode code map.

This morning I have produced a font to support the experiment.

The font has a basic alphabet, digits and some punctuation. These are copied from my Sonnet to a Renaissance Lady font. I added a glyph for a + sign.

In addition the font has a glyph mapped to U+F9001. The glyph states the code point of the character, using U+f9001 as the design of the glyph.

Here is a transcript of the notes that I made while I produced the font.

----

Start a new font using FontCreator 5.6.

Name as Localizable Sentences 001

Add an additional cell at the end.

Add the Microsoft UCS-4 platform through the Platform Manager (Format -> Platform Manager) by selecting Microsoft Unicode Full-repertoire choosing the option button Copy from Microsoft Unicode BMP only and OK.

Then use Format Mappings... Microsoft Unicode full repertoire, note that Segmented coverage is displayed, highlight the glyph at the end of the list, enter $F9001 in the Value box and click Add and then click OK.

In the Glyph Overview window, right click on the glyph and check the mapping.

Now update the range settings on the Ranges page on the Font Settings window (Format -> Settings). Here set the Contents and Layout version to 3: then select the 'Edit' button within the Unicode Character Ranges area. Check 'Non-Plane 0 - implies that...' and check 'Private Use (plane 15) and Private Use (plane 16)' and press the 'OK' button.

Format Post... Generate Names OK.

Validate the font.

Change the metrics to be 2048, 0, -1024

Set the width of the space and the nonmarkingreturn glyphs to 512 font units as in the Sonnet to a Renaissance Lady font.

Copy .notdef and basic alphabets and digits and punctuation from the Sonnet to a Renaissance Lady font.

Add U+201B and U+201F into the smart quotes and then copy all eight smart quotes from the Sonnet to a Renaissance Lady font.

Produce a glyph for + by adapting a copy of 4.

Make a glyph illustrating U+f9001 to place in the U+F9001 cell.

Validate the font.

----

Here is an attachment of the test file that contains the U+F9001 character. It was produced using Microsoft WordPad by saving as a Unicode Text Document.

message.txt
A file containing the U+F9001 character
(6 Bytes) Downloaded 341 times


Here is an attachment of the font.

LOCSE001.TTF
The Localizable Sentences 001 font
(11.42 KiB) Downloaded 343 times


The font is also available directly from our family webspace.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/LOCSE001.TTF

William Overington

17 April 2009
Last edited by William on Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:08 am

I have now produced a font Localizable Sentences 002.

This font is a superset of the Localizable Sentences 001 font.

The additions are 63 glyphs, at U+F9000 and U+F9002..U+F903F, thus meaning that the Localizable Sentences 002 font has a glyph at each of the locations U+F9000 through to U+F903F. Each glyph illustrates the value of the code point. For example, the glyph for U+F9032 is U+f9032.

I have added some more sentences to the experiment and I have added a full stop to the definition of U+F9001. Hopefully the sentences provide the opportunity for experiments in language-independent two-way communication by email. The set of sentences thus far defined is as follows.

U+F9001 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE GOOD DAY.


U+F900F LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING TO MY QUESTION.


U+F9010 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE FOLLOWING QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED.

U+F9011 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE MY ANSWER IS AS FOLLOWS.

U+F9012 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE NO.

U+F9013 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE YES.


U+F9020 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE WHAT IS THE WEATHER SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE LOCATED PLEASE?

U+F9021 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT RAINING?

U+F9022 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT SNOWING?

U+F9023 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT SUNNY?

U+F9024 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IS IT CLOUDY?


U+F9031 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS RAINING.

U+F9032 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS SNOWING.

U+F9033 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS SUNNY.

U+F9034 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS CLOUDY.

I did at first think in terms of making a font for just the code points needed for these fifteen sentences, but then thought that if it was desired to add a few more sentences then that would mean a new font needing to be made, so I made a font with a block of code points having glyphs so as to allow for some expansion of the selection of sentences during experimentation without needing another font.

As a result of publishing a note about the Localizable Sentences 001 font in the Unicode Public Email List a gentleman wrote asking why a font that states code point values was needed, as either a font would be needed that in some way displayed the localized sentences, or a display would be produced by special software which accepted the code points and displayed sentences directly using a conventional font. This is a good question. The answer is that if the experiment leads to full scale implementation then indeed a font that states code point values would not be needed: however, for experiments at the present stage a font that states code point values is very useful as it allows messages expressed using the code points to be analysed and manually localized.

Here is the font as an attachment.

LOCSE002.TTF
The Localizable Sentences 002 font
(38.68 KiB) Downloaded 312 times


The font is also available as follows.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/LOCSE002.TTF

William Overington

20 April 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:03 am

Here is a typecase_ file that includes all 64 of the code points from U+F9000 to U+F903F. The code points are on four lines and adjacent code points on a line are separated by a space.

typecase_locse002.txt
A file saved from WordPad as a Unicode Text Document
(402 Bytes) Downloaded 289 times


Here is a part of a Print Screen image after opening the typecase_locse002.txt file in WordPad. The font is the default font of Courier New at 10 point.

locse002_unformatted.png
locse002_unformatted.png (913 Bytes) Viewed 10652 times


Here is a part of a Print Screen image after opening the typecase_locse002.txt file in WordPad and after then formatting using the Localizable Sentences 002 font at 24 point.

locse002_formatted.png
locse002_formatted.png (19.28 KiB) Viewed 10652 times


William Overington

20 April 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:39 am

A gentleman provided translation of the sentences into Swedish in the following post, also suggesting another localizable sentence.

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0231.html

I suggested a mapping for the additional localizable sentence.

U+F900E LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE BEST REGARDS,

Thus my adding of a block of code points into the font has been of advantage. Another localizable sentence has been added without needing another font.

William Overington

21 April 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:19 am

I have now produced another font, Localizable Sentences 003.

I started with a copy of the Localizable Sentences 002 font.

The idea of this font is that I changed the glyph design for each of the sixteen code points that are currently in use for sentences.

In the Localizable Sentences 002 font, each glyph was a representation of a Unicode code point value.

In the Localizable Sentences 003 font, the glyph design for each of the sixteen code points that are currently in use for sentences has been changed. I have designed sixteen symbols. The designs are largely abstract, yet some hopefully hint at a meaning. For example, each question sentence has a question mark like shape within the design of the symbol.

The designs are wide so as hopefully to convey the idea that each symbol represents a whole sentence.

The designs are language independent.

Here is the font as an attachment.

LOCSE003.TTF
The Localizable Sentences 003 font
(35.3 KiB) Downloaded 306 times


Here is a graphic showing a fictional email conversation between fictional characters John and Edith where the conversation is being represented using the language-independent symbols.

locse003_example.png
A fictional email conversation using the language-independent symbols
locse003_example.png (8.45 KiB) Viewed 10601 times


Some readers might like to try displaying the file typecase_locse002.txt using this font so as to show the sixteen symbols in their places in the code point mapping. I used 24 point in tests.

William Overington

24 April 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:04 am

Some readers might like the following link.

https://launchpad.net/locsenchar

I started the project at Launchpad earlier today.

As a result of posting in the Unicode Public Email List there has been some private email correspondence with some people who saw the posts there. One of the email correspondents told me about Launchpad.

William Overington

27 April 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Wed May 13, 2009 2:51 pm

Here is the latest font for the experiment.

LOCSE004.TTF
The Localizable Sentences 004 font
(33.81 KiB) Downloaded 308 times


The font now has glyphs for five extra sentences.

On Friday 24 April 2009 I started LOCSE004.TTF Localizable Sentences 004 starting with a copy of LOCSE003.TTF Localizable Sentences 003.

I tried designing and adding glyphs for two new sentences.

This was done as much as an exercise in graphic design as in sentence development.

U+F9014 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE INDEFINITE NO.

U+F9015 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE INDEFINITE YES.

On Saturday 25 April 2009 I produced designs for the following sentences.

U+F9016 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE I DO NOT KNOW.

U+F9017 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE I NEED MORE INFORMATION IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO ANSWER.

U+F9018 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE I REFUSE TO ANSWER.

Here is a graphic produced using the Localizable Sentences 004 font. I started WordPad, then opened the file typecase_locse002.txt and then formatted to the Localizable Sentences 004 font at 24 point. I then made a Print Screen copy and then pasted into Paint, then trimmed from the lower edge (from 600 pixels) and then saved as a .png file.

locse004_sample.png
The typecase_locse002.txt file displayed using the Localizable Sentences 004 font
locse004_sample.png (37.5 KiB) Viewed 10467 times


William Overington

13 May 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Wed May 20, 2009 7:37 am

Here is the latest font for the experiment.

LOCSE005.TTF
The Localizable Sentences 005 font
(35.42 KiB) Downloaded 304 times


The font adds fourteen mapped glyphs as follows.

U+F9100 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS BLACK.
U+F9101 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS BROWN.
U+F9102 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS RED.
U+F9103 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS ORANGE.
U+F9104 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS YELLOW.
U+F9105 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS GREEN.
U+F9106 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS BLUE.
U+F9107 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS MAGENTA.
U+F9108 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS GREY.
U+F9109 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS WHITE.
U+F910A LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS CYAN.
U+F910B LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS PINK.
U+F910C LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS DARK GREY.
U+F910D LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE COLOUR IS LIGHT GREY.

The Alt codes are Alt 1020160 to Alt 1020173. I have successfully used the font on a PC running Windows xp professional using Microsoft WordPad using the Alt codes. I do not know how it fares on other systems.

I am hoping to add some sentences such as LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE WHAT IS THE COLOUR PLEASE? and also some sentences for specifying the red, green, blue and alpha components of a custom colour and some localizable digits as well.

I am also thinking of adding some sentences such as LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THERE IS A FLOWER. so that experiments involving questions and answers involving colour can take place.

I have used the Petra Sancta system of hatching lines, often used for expressing colours in black and white books about heraldry, as a basis for the designs of many of the glyphs expressing colours. I find it interesting as to how more colours can be expressed using symbols.

Some readers may find the following threads of interest.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2699

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2705

William Overington

20 May 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Sat May 23, 2009 9:07 am

Here is the latest font for the experiment.

LOCSE006.TTF
The Localizable Sentences 006 font
(37.66 KiB) Downloaded 309 times


The font adds glyphs for the following localizable sentences.

U+F9060 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT ZERO.
U+F9061 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT ONE.
U+F9062 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT TWO.
U+F9063 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT THREE.
U+F9064 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT FOUR.
U+F9065 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT FIVE.
U+F9066 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT SIX.
U+F9067 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT SEVEN.
U+F9068 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT EIGHT.
U+F9069 LOCALIZABLE DIGIT NINE.

U+F914F LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE ALPHA COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.
U+F9150 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE BLACK COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.
U+F9152 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE RED COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.
U+F9154 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE YELLOW COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.
U+F9155 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE GREEN COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.
U+F9156 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE BLUE COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.
U+F9157 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE MAGENTA COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.
U+F915A LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE THE CYAN COMPONENT OF THE COLOUR HAS THE FOLLOWING VALUE.

U+ F9160 LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE WHAT IS THE COLOUR PLEASE?

The eight localizable sentences for colour components allow the choice of using RGB, RGBA and CYMK colour models. The intention is that in use one or more localizable digit characters will follow each colour component character.

Here is a graphic showing the glyphs added to this latest version of the font.

Glyphs added in the Localizable Sentences 006 font.png
Glyphs added in the Localizable Sentences 006 font
Glyphs added in the Localizable Sentences 006 font.png (21.59 KiB) Viewed 10352 times


Readers wishing to try the font in WordPad using Alt codes may like the following information.

U+F9060 is Alt 1020000 Add 1 to 9 for other localizable digits.
U+F914F is Alt 1020239
U+F9150 is Alt 1020240 Add 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10 for other localizable sentences about colour components.
U+F9160 is Alt 1020256

William Overington

23 May 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:35 am

Yesterday I produced the Localizable Sentences 007 font.

The font adds glyphs for four new sentences. They are placed in cells that were already in the font.

U+F903C LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS SPRING.

U+F903D LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS SUMMER.

U+F903E LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS AUTUMN.

U+F903F LOCALIZABLE SENTENCE IT IS WINTER.

Here is the font.

LOCSE007.TTF
The Localizable Sentences 007 font
(36.63 KiB) Downloaded 289 times


I tested the font using WordPad, at 24 point.

The Alt codes for U+F903C through to U+F903F are Alt 1019964 through to 1019967.

Here is a graphic showing the four glyphs in numerical order.

locse007_seasons.png
Glyphs for sentences about the seasons in the Localizable Sentences 007 font
locse007_seasons.png (1.48 KiB) Viewed 10281 times


In designing the glyphs I wondered quite how to produce designs representing sentences about the seasons. I decided to base the designs around the idea of the leaves of a deciduous tree.

William Overington

9 June 2009

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:31 am

I have written a poem using some of the localizable sentences that I used in my experiments last year.

It is winter.
The colour is white.
It is spring.
The colour is green.
The colour is yellow.
It is summer.
The colour is green.
The colour is yellow.
The colour is red.
It is autumn.
The colour is yellow.
The colour is brown.
It is winter.
It is cloudy.
The colour is grey.
It is snowing.
The colour is white.

The poem uses twelve of the localizable sentences, some used more than once.

The whole poem can be expressed using seventeen private use area characters.

There are fonts containing language-independent glyphs in the following thread.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2672

Readers are invited to try creative writing using the localizable sentences thus far defined.

Readers are invited to suggest more localizable sentences.

Maybe one day a pdf could contain regular Unicode codes expressing localizable sentences and a version of Adobe Reader will automatically localize into the selected local language using an external file as the dictionary for the conversion from localizable sentences to sentences expressed in the chosen local language.

William Overington

15 January 2010

The above text is a transcript of a post sent earlier this morning to the Unicode mailing list.

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0106.html

I am hoping that some localizable sentences will be encoded into regular Unicode.

William Overington

15 January 2010

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby vanisaac » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:51 pm

William wrote:I am hoping that some localizable sentences will be encoded into regular Unicode.


I'm not sure what you base that hope on. Unicode is not a plaything for hobbyists. It is a serious, industry driven effort to allow the entire world to electronically store text records from both the present and the past. The fact that no one has responded to this thread since the middle of April, and the only responses you have ever received on the Unicode list are along the lines of "let's create an off-topic list, so the main message board isn't clogged by this stuff" should indicate to you that this is not germaine, and is generally thought to be at best uninteresting, and more probably annoying.

You do realize that there are legitimate communities (read: more than one person) out there whose writing is not currently encoded in Unicode. I have spent the better part of the last year of my life working on just such a proposal. Visit http://www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/sei ... -list.html and you can see all sorts of scripts that haven't been tackled yet. There are scholars waiting for information technology to come to their discipline, and there are people in the world shut out of the electronic age, all because their script hasn't been encoded! Contact Deborah Anderson at the SEI if you want to tackle one of these scripts that doesn't have a current proposal, just in case someone has already started, but doesn't have a document yet. You could actually meet a legitimate need in the world instead of hopping on flights-of-fancy. I will look over any proposal document you have, and even give you my proposal html code to get you started. I will send you all of my documentation, all of the previous incarnations of the proposal, everything, so you can see how a proposal is made, how it matures, and how to undertake this work. Really, it is so much more fascinating than anything you have put forth here. I am offering this to you even though I am trying to actually take on script encoding on a semi-professional basis, and every other person taking on script encoding lessens the need for my work. It is that important.

I'm sorry if this seems cruel, but if it hasn't dawned on you that nobody thinks this is neat or even possible, then maybe a plea to your humanity - to actually tackle the real need out there for script encoders - may be the only way to get you beyond this.

Van Anderson

PS, I apologize if this post is nominally off-topic for the gallery forum.

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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:57 am

vanisaac wrote:
William wrote:I am hoping that some localizable sentences will be encoded into regular Unicode.

I'm not sure what you base that hope on.


The fact that the emoji have been encoded, so quickly and in full.

It seems to me that if one or more manufacturers of mobile telephones produced a list of localizable sentences, language-independent glyphs for them and Unicode Private Use Area codepoints for them, incorporated them into mobile telephones or maybe not even into hardware but into software applications to run on mobile telephones, then there is a high probability that the Unicode Consortium would quickly encode the localizable sentences into regular Unicode.

Certainly the precedent of the emoji may well rely to a high extent upon from where the proposal arrives.

A person who can vote in public elections cannot be a voting member of the Unicode Consortium.

vanisaac wrote:You do realize that there are legitimate communities (read: more than one person) out there whose writing is not currently encoded in Unicode.


Well, I realize that there are communities out there whose writing is not currently encoded in Unicode.

vanisaac wrote:I have spent the better part of the last year of my life working on just such a proposal. Visit http://www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/sei ... -list.html and you can see all sorts of scripts that haven't been tackled yet. There are scholars waiting for information technology to come to their discipline, and there are people in the world shut out of the electronic age, all because their script hasn't been encoded! Contact Deborah Anderson at the SEI if you want to tackle one of these scripts that doesn't have a current proposal, just in case someone has already started, but doesn't have a document yet. You could actually meet a legitimate need in the world instead of hopping on flights-of-fancy.


Well, yes, I could hopefully meet a real need in the world, but why do you feel the need to slam my research as "hopping on flights-of-fancy"? My ideas are surely harmless.

vanisaac wrote:I will look over any proposal document you have, and even give you my proposal html code to get you started. I will send you all of my documentation, all of the previous incarnations of the proposal, everything, so you can see how a proposal is made, how it matures, and how to undertake this work.


That is very kind of you and I am interested to try to participate.

vanisaac wrote:Really, it is so much more fascinating than anything you have put forth here.


Well, why do you feel the need to keep knocking what I am trying to do with the localizable sentences?

vanisaac wrote:I'm sorry if this seems cruel,

Well, what concerns me is that nobody who criticises the idea seems both able and willing to say why it will not work, even though the claim is made.

vanisaac wrote:but if it hasn't dawned on you that nobody thinks this is neat or even possible,


Well, have you asked everybody? A few people have tried to ridicule the idea and make out that it will not work, but nobody has yet stated any reasons.

vanisaac wrote:then maybe a plea to your humanity - to actually tackle the real need out there for script encoders -


Well, an appeal to my humanity seems wrong to me.
Devising some sentences and assigning Private Use Area codepoints to them and designing some language-independent glyphs and publishing them and hoping that they will become encoded in regular Unicode and be an interesting cultural phenomenon that can allow a little communication across language barriers is not, in my opinion at least, inhumane.

vanisaac wrote:- to actually tackle the real need out there for script encoders -


I would be pleased to do that.

Yet is it going to be that once I get interested that I am going to be rejected by the system because I am not a linguist or do not already know some things or because I am not representing an organization?

vanisaac wrote:- may be the only way to get you beyond this.


Well, it is only harmless research.

Surely whether I participate in script encoding is one thing and whether I pursue my research on localizable sentences are orthogonal matters.

Also, I have various other research interests as well.

vanisaac wrote:PS, I apologize if this post is nominally off-topic for the gallery forum.


Well, it does not seem off-topic to me.

Also, you have taken the time to reply and made an offer.

I have not agreed with everything you have written, but that is the nature of opinion and debate in a free society.

Thank you for replying.

William Overington

16 January 2010

vanisaac
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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby vanisaac » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:00 pm

William wrote:The fact that the emoji have been encoded, so quickly and in full.

And that's because Emoji are supported by multiple independent industry players reacting to market forces. There is a distinct need for enabling cross-compatibility of the Emoji. For the sake of the community - the actual mobile phone users have a need for more universal support- for the sake of the industry - they can better serve their customers - and for the sake of the standard - having a large group of frequently-used, unstandardized characters, without any Consortium oversight is bad - they moved quickly to support and standardize the Emoji. It was felt that not delving into this area would undermine the standard.

William wrote:It seems to me that if one or more manufacturers of mobile telephones produced a list of localizable sentences, language-independent glyphs for them and Unicode Private Use Area codepoints for them, incorporated them into mobile telephones or maybe not even into hardware but into software applications to run on mobile telephones, then there is a high probability that the Unicode Consortium would quickly encode the localizable sentences into regular Unicode.

Certainly the precedent of the emoji may well rely to a high extent upon from where the proposal arrives.

A person who can vote in public elections cannot be a voting member of the Unicode Consortium.

The fact is that no manufacturers do produce a list of localizable sentences. Do you think that the Emoji just appeared out of nowhere? It has been decades in the works. It started with a recognition that emoticons were in use quite frequently among the non-business users of mobile phones in Japan. So one (maybe more) of the players in the mobile phone market decided to research creating little characters to meet the need that emoticons were doing on an ad-hoc basis. It has developed from there. You are suggesting to put the full weight of the standard behind something that you think industry might support. This is cart-before-horse. There needs to be a community out there that interchanges information before you'll get interest. Get someone to use this, and everything changes. Get a vendor to support it. It's the same reason Klingon PiqaD was not encoded - no one uses it to exchange information! There is no conspiracy in Unicode, and other than an absolute prejudice towards proposals that meet an actual need, there is no elitism.

vanisaac wrote:I have spent the better part of the last year of my life working on just such a proposal. Visit http://www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/sei ... -list.html and you can see all sorts of scripts that haven't been tackled yet. There are scholars waiting for information technology to come to their discipline, and there are people in the world shut out of the electronic age, all because their script hasn't been encoded! Contact Deborah Anderson at the SEI if you want to tackle one of these scripts that doesn't have a current proposal, just in case someone has already started, but doesn't have a document yet. You could actually meet a legitimate need in the world instead of hopping on flights-of-fancy.


William wrote:Well, yes, I could hopefully meet a real need in the world, but why do you feel the need to slam my research as "hopping on flights-of-fancy"? My ideas are surely harmless.

I don't know a nicer way of characterizing it.

vanisaac wrote:- to actually tackle the real need out there for script encoders -


William wrote:I would be pleased to do that.

Yet is it going to be that once I get interested that I am going to be rejected by the system because I am not a linguist or do not already know some things or because I am not representing an organization?


I'm not a linguist. I got a B.A. in classics from the University of Idaho, which, I guess, makes me eligible to be Vice-President, but that's it. When I started on this project, I was building houses for Habitat for Humanity; Nobody cares. I am, according to the submission form, an "Individual Contributor". I have received nothing but support and on-point critiques from the same people you seem to dismiss so easily. Check out the archives from last February to see what the response was. All I did was come forward with something that at least attempted to respect the standard, and the entire support structure of the consortium just rose up around me. All sorts of professionals, many of them the same people who are so tepid on your idea, read through everything I had and came forward with the most helpful, incisive, and productive feedback imaginable. I got a small grant to acquire technology so I could finish the project.

As for general knowledge, read through the standard (version 3.0 was available for $6 at Powells the other day), and look through the Submitting Proposals section of the Unicode website. That's what's going to be expected, nothing more; Imperfect understanding is better than no clue.

William wrote:Thank you for replying.

William Overington

16 January 2010

You're welcome.
Van

William
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Re: Localizable Sentences Experiment font support

Postby William » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:38 am

Thank you for replying.
vanisaac wrote:The fact is that no manufacturers do produce a list of localizable sentences.

That is correct as far as I am aware.
vanisaac wrote:Do you think that the Emoji just appeared out of nowhere?

No.
vanisaac wrote:You are suggesting to put the full weight of the standard behind something that you think industry might support.

Well, I am not thinking in terms of it being me who applies for encoding.

In that manner the situation can resolve itself in a natural, harmonious manner.

If there is never any interest, then the localizable sentences are just in a few posts in the archive of the mailing list and in a few items elsewhere and maybe in a few works of art: in some ways like a rather beautiful yet specialist piece of pure mathematics.

If there is interest, whenever, and some localizable sentences, not necessarily those used in the present experiments, are implemented using private use area codes in systems such as email and mobile telephones, then the need to encode them into regular Unicode may arise and the experts who handle such matters would get the matter done.
vanisaac wrote:I have received nothing but support and on-point critiques from the same people you seem to dismiss so easily.

I have not dismissed anyone. I do not do dismissing.

You suggested that I contact the Department of Lingusitics at a particular University and I asked the following question.
William wrote:Yet is it going to be that once I get interested that I am going to be rejected by the system because I am not a linguist or do not already know some things or because I am not representing an organization?

It was a question.
vanisaac wrote:Check out the archives from last February to see what the response was.

Well, that was the Unicode mailing list, not the University.
vanisaac wrote:All sorts of professionals, many of them the same people who are so tepid on your idea, ...

I would not have described the response to my idea as tepid. Perhaps you are being politely generous with the description of the temperature? :-)

Anyway, I posted two items in the Unicode mailing list earlier this morning so as to respond to matters raised by others and hopefully you and other readers might find them of interest, particularly the second one.

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0135.html

I continue to think that my research on localizable sentences is harmless.

For example, last Saturday it was very windy here first thing in the morning, and I thought that I would add a sentence for "It is windy." to the set of localizable sentences, so I thought that I would add localizable sentences for "It is hailing." and "It is foggy." at the same time. So I then started to think of what I would use for language-independent glyphs for them. I have not yet decided on that yet, but it is fun for me to do, as art.

Again, thank you for replying.

William Overington

18 January 2010


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