Help with CV/VC Pairings

[Kuroiryuu]

So I've figured out how to make Consonant-Vowel pairings and subsequently Vowel-Consonant pairs with Contextual Alternates. My font determined by overlapping pairs, if CV order, the vowel is overlaid on top of the consonant, but if inverted, the vowel is exchanged for a variant with a mark below it to denote it's order. It mostly works except for if a vowel comes first in a word, followed by a consonant then a vowel. The consonant and vowel take precedence over the vowel-consonant pairing, and it breaks. Is there any way to have FontCreator treat the two pairings as equal? Basically, look for CV pairings, and if not, found, then use a VC pairing?

[Erwin Denissen]

It might help if you provide some more information. Will this be the only exception, or are there other problems you need to solve as well?

[Kuroiryuu]

It might help if you provide some more information. Will this be the only exception, or are there other problems you need to solve as well?

What do you mean by the only exception? It seems to be the only problem I'm facing right now.

[Erwin Denissen]

Maybe there are more complex exceptions you haven't thought of yet.

[Kuroiryuu]

Well, enlighten me, then? I'm unaware of quite a bit, and I've only gotten this far by trial-and-error, including restarting my alternates a few times.

[Erwin Denissen]

Well, enlighten me, then? I'm unaware of quite a bit, and I've only gotten this far by trial-and-error, including restarting my alternates a few times.

I honestly don't know what problems might arise later as I don't know your full intentions of your font. Maybe you will also need Vowel-Consonant-Consonant.

But back to your original question; it would help if you provide a clear sample font project with a few characters to illustrate the problems. Also let us know what software you intend to use, as not all software support all OpenType layout features.

[Kuroiryuu]

I've attached the project file as well as picture example.
In the picture, the first word is how it should be, sans the space separating the first and second combination of glyphs. The second is how it's coming out. Third part is each character separated; ʌ,n,i,l,d. ʌ is a vowel, show n should go on top of it, with the ʌ changing to it's alternate with the mark below it. Same with i & l, then d as a separate d at the end.
I'm already working in FontCreator 14, which is what the project is for.

[Erwin Denissen]

Not sure if this is what you want, but I deleted the first rule:

secretlegend.png (134.49 KiB) Viewed 2950 times

[Kuroiryuu]

Yeah, without the first rule enforcing the C-V pair, it prioritizes V-C combinations, and fixes that, and everything else catastrophically fails.
In font example 1, all of the text is how it should be. In font example 2, without the C-V rule, it shifts everything over, creating V-C pairs.

[Erwin Denissen]

I am lost here. At first you provided a basic example, but now it becomes complex.

Maybe we can help if you provide a couple of short samples and tell us how they should look like.

[Kuroiryuu]

Now that I'm looking at it, I think it's something to do with the schwa (ə) character. It's present in all of these examples where the problem occurs. I have rules that change it to a different character, depending on the context, however, I don't know what is effecting it. I've tried deleting all of the context rules as well as any substitutions, and I can't pin it down at all. It still needs to stay as it's own character if separated, so that can't change, in order to be correct, but as I said, it has several other vowels it can take the shape of, depending on what's around it.

[Erwin Denissen]

Maybe the proofing tool helps you understand what features are executed in what order.

secretproof.png (255.22 KiB) Viewed 2924 times

[Kuroiryuu]

Okay, well, that's something new that will be very helpful for understanding things better. However, I'm not sure how to find something when it's *not* being effected that is the problem. I don't know how to solve that.

[Kuroiryuu]

Okay, well, I've "sort of" fixed the problem with more contextual alternates, but according to the feature proofing, in the cases of əˈlʊrɪŋ (alluring) and əˈnild (annealed )(using combinations of əˈlʊ and əˈni to change the ə to it's CAlt version), it does that step, but then immediately combines lʊ and ni into their C-V overlapped pairs, on top of the ə CAlt version. Is there any way to create an exception that subvert that in these cases?

It also happens with ˌriˈæləˌti (reality), where it works fine up until ˈæl, then it combines le on top, and messes up the end of the word.

Basically, when presented with V-C-V combination where the vowel needs to be it's alternate, it's seeing the C-V combination and overlaying it on top of that, since the consonant is meant to overlay the vowel in that situation, but it's also using the C-V combination with a vowel overlaid on top, combining the three characters together.

I think I need to somehow be able to tell it that when faced with a singular vowel, to then produce the V-C combination, and ignore the C-V combination, but not effect singular vowels when they are standalone.

Edit: The problem was entirely that I didn't have the schwa set to use it's alternate. I'm an idiot. I do appreciate your help immensely.
Edit 2: There's one word that is still broken, checking the rest now, will post soon to see if it's the only one.
Edit 3: Everything I seem to be coming across is the vowels being messed up somehow by the vertical line mod, which I don't understand, since I have them set up to treat all characters with that in front as if it didn't exist. Consonants don't treat the following characters differently. I've uploaded an updated project file, if you could maybe see what's going on that I can't see.