Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

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Hitch
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Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Hitch » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:29 pm

Hi:

I've been a MT Pro user for a few years now, and just upgraded to 8. (I run multiple font managers, for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I can't seem to find ONE that gives me everything I want. The others are SuitcaseFusion and Typograf, and one that I think I've actually forgotten, now. I'm rather attached to Typograf's font information, that you can't get with either SF or with MT, e.g., font size information, etc., which is critical when working on eBooks.)

Perhaps I'm misremembering this, but in the new manual for 8, p. 22, it says to display all glyphs, "click the left "G" button on the Toolbar." Hunh? What "left G" button on the toolbar? Didn't this used to be a menu option, or am I thinking of FS? And, regardless, where is the mystical "left G" button, please?

Second stupid question: I've tried the Tutorials, the manual, etc, and maybe I missed it, but how, exactly, is the Library created and calculated? The manual states, in the "Predefined Views," (p. 11) that the Library "Entire list of all fonts in your library," which is hardly helpful. Is "the Library" the sum of your Groups? (That seems to certainly NOT be it.) How can I see exactly which folders, either virtual or real (so to speak) comprise the Library? I have more fonts than are displayed, numbers-wise, and I do not see fonts, in my Library, that I know are in my master fonts folder. Thus, it does not seem to be the sum total of my master font collection folder (which is in a Dropbox.)

I want to know because I would like to create a group, of some kind--still thinking about this--that does contain all the fonts in my master font collection, even the dopey ones that you end up with from bundles, where people used some stupid app to make their scribbles into a so-called "font." (oops, sorry, but...you know how it is.) I don't want to do that if it will just duplicate the 4K+ that are in the Library now. Whatever the "Library" is, or from whichever it is constituted.

Can anyone tell me? How does the Library get calculated? Also, opinions please for best practices: now that I have a fairly massive collection of fonts, in that dropbox folder, would it be better/smarter to use a synched folder? Recursively indexed? Or "just" a Group? For the "all" folder, that is?

Thanks much.

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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:43 am

The latest update is now version 8.0.0.1126.

Font Information, File Size
File Size.png
File Size.png (5.23 KiB) Viewed 2311 times
Left "G" Button on the Toolbar

Due to changes in the HiDPI icon set, this Left "G" Button has been changed. The manual needs an update.
Glyph Mode.png
Glyph Mode.png (12.53 KiB) Viewed 2311 times
Fonts in Font Library

The number of fonts in your library is all of those in all Folders that have been added to the Library. Library menu, Font Folders (Ctrl L).

Best Practice

Whatever suits your workflow. Fonts can appear in multiple groups so the total count of fonts in all groups is a meaningless number.
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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Erwin Denissen » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:52 pm

Hitch wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:29 pm
I've been a MT Pro user for a few years now, and just upgraded to 8. (I run multiple font managers, for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I can't seem to find ONE that gives me everything I want. The others are SuitcaseFusion and Typograf, and one that I think I've actually forgotten, now. I'm rather attached to Typograf's font information, that you can't get with either SF or with MT, e.g., font size information, etc., which is critical when working on eBooks.)
You can also show the File Size column.

By default, MainType displays eleven columns in the fonts panel. If you right-click on any column header you can change the visibility of the columns. If the name of a column is checked, it will appear in the panel. You can change the width of each column by left clicking on the vertical bars between each column and dragging it either left or right. To change the order of the columns left click on the column header and drag it to the left or right. Left-click on any column to sort the fonts.

So what other font information is critical?
MainType File Size.png
MainType File Size.png (45.31 KiB) Viewed 2302 times
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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Hitch » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm

Hi:

Thank both of you, but you misunderstood my meaning, about the font information. I was talking about actual information (metrics) about the font character itself, not the file size. For example, height of the character cell, units above the base line units below the baseline, kerning pairs, average letter width, etc. If you have ever used Typograf (the paid version--I have no idea if the free version also has it), the properties dialog contains a TON of information about the font itself. See screenshot for an example, from ACaslonReg. :
2018-01-21_11-41-01_preview.jpeg
2018-01-21_11-41-01_preview.jpeg (244.93 KiB) Viewed 2275 times
When you build ebooks, you have an ongoing challenge of ensuring that when you embed a font, for a specific word or phrase, let's say, mixing two fonts in the same sentence or paragraph of text, that the size of the characters is consistent in both. This is because despite what you can do (as in print) to make them similar in appearance, on the 50% of all eReaders that do not display embedded fonts, or those where the user can override the defined fonts, when the content is shifted to the same font, you need to be suree that you haven't inadvertently mixed in a 2em font with a 1em font, (a 16pt with a 12pt, effectively.)

In other words, not to babble on, but, if you embed a very small (base size) font, in the same line with, say, Caslon, and you set up the small font to be, say, 2x its normal base size, to bring it up to the "same" size as the Caslon base (12pt), when Jane Doe opens this up on her reader, which only allows her to use a SINGLE font, the words/phrases/etc., in the formerly-small font will now be twice the size of the Caslon text, completely screwing it up. So, you always want to use fonts that have very, very similar or close or preferably identical base-size character heights, ascenders and descenders, as all come into play in eBooks.

@Bhikkhu: Thank you for showing me what "Left G" means. I was pretty frustrated, as we use a lot of glyphs. And for clarifying what's contained in "The Library." Now I'm sort of bollixed; the folders that I've used, to create Groups, are subsets (subdirs) of the main font folder, so I'm debating if I should remove them all and start over, or do something else. What a botherment. Coming out of the geeky side of eBooks, not the design side of print, collecting/using fonts was an afterthought for a number of years, until the tech caught up with print (for fonts, I mean). So I have a folder (and a few other folders, but that's another story) that hold ALL my fonts, and that's a bunch. I have 4300 catalogued in MT, but...maybe that many again that aren't, and I have zero desire to have dupes all over the place, which is what I'd have, if I just used the main folder as a virtual group. Hmmmph. Oh, well. That's not really a tech problem; that's a user problem. ;-) Me being that user, of course.

I use the font count primarily to ensure that I know, off-hand, if I'm seeing ALL of my fonts, or not. With all the font managers I have running, it gets to be a task just to keep them all synched to the font collections.

I'm familiar, of course, @Erwin, with resizing columns, etc.

Thanks. I do appreciate both of your time and your efforts.

Hitch

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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:13 pm

With only 4,300 fonts, rebuilding the groups does not take long. Just do a complete uninstall, removing the font vault, and reinstalling, creating groups from you folders.
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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Hitch » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:17 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:13 pm
With only 4,300 fonts, rebuilding the groups does not take long. Just do a complete uninstall, removing the font vault, and reinstalling, creating groups from you folders.
Oh, I didn't think that MT would take long; I meant that the user portion--me--would take a while, as my main directory has a few thousand fonts that have not yet been put in their corresponding folders.

TY kindly for your attention to my questions.

Hitch

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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Erwin Denissen » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:38 am

Hitch wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Thank both of you, but you misunderstood my meaning, about the font information. I was talking about actual information (metrics) about the font character itself, not the file size. For example, height of the character cell, units above the base line units below the baseline, kerning pairs, average letter width, etc. If you have ever used Typograf (the paid version--I have no idea if the free version also has it), the properties dialog contains a TON of information about the font itself. (See linked screenshot for an example, from ACaslonReg. : https://www.dropbox.com/s/y6t1zshhlit9j ... 1.jpg?dl=0 )
Our font manager already shows a lot of such font information:
MainTypeFontInformation.png
MainTypeFontInformation.png (48.43 KiB) Viewed 2274 times
We might add some more of these metrics, but only if they are really useful.

MainType shows if a font contains kerning. Does the number of kern pairs mean something? What if those kern pairs all all for Greek while you need pairs for Latin?

I don't understand the use of the other metrics, and some of them don't even exist in the font, so you might make decisions based on inaccurate information. For example "units above baseline" (100) refers to Windows metrics. Apple uses other metrics, and in this case it is probably 73. Also important is the "Use typo metrics" option, so you miss important information.
FontCreatorFontProperties.png
FontCreatorFontProperties.png (23.87 KiB) Viewed 2271 times
Don't get me wrong, as I totally understand your need for specific metrics. I'm not sure if you've ever used FontCreator. It will show you way more information, and if you can tell me what information might be useful in MainType, we're happy to consider it!
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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Hitch » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:41 pm

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:38 am
Hitch wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Thank both of you, but you misunderstood my meaning, about the font information. I was talking about actual information (metrics) about the font character itself, not the file size. For example, height of the character cell, units above the base line units below the baseline, kerning pairs, average letter width, etc. If you have ever used Typograf (the paid version--I have no idea if the free version also has it), the properties dialog contains a TON of information about the font itself. (See linked screenshot for an example, from ACaslonReg. : https://www.dropbox.com/s/y6t1zshhlit9j ... 1.jpg?dl=0 )
Our font manager already shows a lot of such font information:
MainTypeFontInformation.png
Thank you, I am aware of the font information that is displayed by MainType. One of the reasons that I bought MT, after becoming utterly fed up with FontSuitcase, is because you at least have some information. I want to be clear that I'm not complaining about MT; I'm answering this so that my comments are clarified.
We might add some more of these metrics, but only if they are really useful.
Well, I suspect that our needs, while not unique, are rare. We are a commercial producer of eBooks; font embedding is one of our specialties, and why we are in demand, and thus, we do a lot of it. I would be surprised if you ever had another request for it, or more than one other. Every font manager software company with which I have spoken looked at me as if I was speaking Martian, when I said I needed the info.
MainType shows if a font contains kerning. Does the number of kern pairs mean something? What if those kern pairs all all for Greek while you need pairs for Latin?


You are correct in that the number of pairs, by itself, is a relatively meaningless piece of data.
I don't understand the use of the other metrics, and some of them don't even exist in the font, so you might make decisions based on inaccurate information. For example "units above baseline" (100) refers to Windows metrics. Apple uses other metrics, and in this case it is probably 73. Also important is the "Use typo metrics" option, so you miss important information.
Sure, you are right in that. BUT, what I can do is to compare a variety of fonts, using TG, and I can compare the metrics of each font to the others. It doesn't matter, essentially, if the data is only for Windows, e.g., "Height of the character cell" (although I think that's universal, not Windows only, no?); what matters is the relative size of one font to the other.

For example, let's say we have a client that's done a how-to book, and she's structured sentences to have an opening defining term in one font, and the description in the other, something like:

Dog: A companion animal that...yadda.

Pretend for a moment that she wants the bolded "Dog:" in one font, and "A companion animal..." in another. In print, you can pretty much do whatever you like. You could use, for example, Ivory Headline, for Dog and you could use our old friend ACaslonPro for the body. Right? Easy-peasy.

However, in an eBook, even though you can embed both, and it will look good on those devices that behave and render the way you tell them to render, you have to think about the millions of devices that won't or can't or will have the user override what you've done. According to TG, Caslon has a "height of character cell" of 170; whilst Ivory has a height of 115. Now, truth be told, these are quite close, but pretend for a moment that they aren't--many, many handwriting fonts, for example, are wee--really tiny. So, you tell the software that Caslon should be rendered at, say, 1em--about 12pt, give or take a lie or two. To make the Ivory look "right" against the Caslon, let's say that we tell it to display at...1.4ems, or even 2ems.

When the book is rendered, in a single font--let's say, Caecilia on an older Kindle--then the unintended consequence of the Caecilia being used for both fonts, right? And it will obey the CSS that tells it to display the body at 1em--and the run-in heading (the Ivory portion) at 1.4ems, and it will a) look dumb and b) affect the relative line-heights of the lines of text, looking even dumber.

Typically, this issue is more pronounced than what I've described; we run into it constantly around decorative fonts like Papyrus clones. (Don't ask. You cannot tell authors that they oughtn't use Papyrus for headings. I blame James Cameron for this.) For a few years, Papyrus proper wouldn't work, at the KDP (Kindle), so we had to use similar/look-alike fonts. Many of them were QUITE small.

Anyway, I digress. The point is, while the "height of the character cell" may be irrelevant, in any other context, it gives us something that we can compare, one to the other. Right? I mean, any measurement mechanism is fine, if you are comparing like to like. That's how we use it. It would be very helpful, to us, if we had another comparative measurement--e.g. "if you compared this font to TNR, what size is it?," which we also do, using the like-to-like metrics in TG. (FYI, TNR has a char cell height of 114, with an average character width of 40.) Ideally, if I had some magic way to look at a font and see that it's approximately the same ascender line height, same x height, same Cap height, same meanline, THAT would be awesome, but I don't, so we make do. ;-) (FYI, I also use an inexpensive app, Typography Insight (Microsoft Store) which allows me to do a custom waterfall, in which I can compare the "12pt" size of one font to another. It's not great, but it's a quick way to see very rapidly if a given font is dramatically different, at its base font size, than the font I'm planning to use with it.

(snipped an image)
Don't get me wrong, as I totally understand your need for specific metrics. I'm not sure if you've ever used FontCreator. It will show you way more information, and if you can tell me what information might be useful in MainType, we're happy to consider it!
Well, as nice as MT is, other than "width," really, it doesn't offer much in the way of sizing information. That's my need. And, I don't blame you forr not providing it; as I said, most folks will never need it. (Until making higher-end/designed eBooks becomes the norm.) I believe I only mentioned it to clarify why I have so many font managers.

(n.b.: I'm completely over FS. I agreed to be a beta tester for their new release, and lo--their beta version overwrote my existing, professionally-licensed version, and now I cannot use it, at all, without removing the beta and reinstalling the older version, losing ALL of my custom work in the app--or, I can pay to "upgrade" to a version that EVERYONE hates. I don't know what they were thinking when they designed it, but if you've perused their forums, it's a universal hatred for the new layout and design, and from a time-motion standpoint, utterly idiotic redesign. I felt so aggrieved, taht they thought that this was appropriate behavior that I decided that my relationship with them was over.)

So, that's my story. The genesis of the metrics isn't as important as the simple ability to compare one to the other in a consistent fashion. Yes, it would be groovy if we had a basis to compare ("this font is 80% of the meanline of TNR"), but...as I said, given that we have a rare requirement, I don't expect to see that, really, from any type manager. I'm lucky that it's in TG.

Oh, I forgot to mention--I have and have licensed FontCreator. Yes, I could use that, too, but that's a few extra steps. (Honestly, I only needed it once, because it's easier than FontForge, but I got tired of my last version of MT haranguing me CONSTANTLY to buy it--even AFTER I bought it. I'm glad to see that that's fixed or removed or whatever in V8, because it was really starting to tee me off. Nothing worse than being spammed in a program you've paid for, to buy another program that yes, you've already paid for and installed.)

Thanks for your detailed replies.

Hitch

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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Erwin Denissen » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:12 pm

Hitch wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:41 pm
Sure, you are right in that. BUT, what I can do is to compare a variety of fonts, using TG, and I can compare the metrics of each font to the others. It doesn't matter, essentially, if the data is only for Windows, e.g., "Height of the character cell" (although I think that's universal, not Windows only, no?); what matters is the relative size of one font to the other.
No it is not universal. That's why I told you that information is not trustworthy.
Hitch wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:41 pm
Well, as nice as MT is, other than "width," really, it doesn't offer much in the way of sizing information. That's my need. And, I don't blame you forr not providing it; as I said, most folks will never need it. (Until making higher-end/designed eBooks becomes the norm.) I believe I only mentioned it to clarify why I have so many font managers.
If you ever see room for improvements, and are able to provide a short and clear specification, we might consider it. Right now it is so overwhelming, that I'm not sure what really matters.

One thing you mention is you also compare preview text side by side. As well as a waterfall. We have it on our to-do list, but are not sure if and how we will implement it.
Hitch wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:41 pm
(n.b.: I'm completely over FS. I agreed to be a beta tester for their new release, and lo--their beta version overwrote my existing, professionally-licensed version, and now I cannot use it, at all, without removing the beta and reinstalling the older version, losing ALL of my custom work in the app--or, I can pay to "upgrade" to a version that EVERYONE hates. I don't know what they were thinking when they designed it, but if you've perused their forums, it's a universal hatred for the new layout and design, and from a time-motion standpoint, utterly idiotic redesign. I felt so aggrieved, taht they thought that this was appropriate behavior that I decided that my relationship with them was over.)
I can be short about competing font managers; more and more people make use of our cross grade discount, so we know we are doing something good :D
Hitch wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:41 pm
Oh, I forgot to mention--I have and have licensed FontCreator. Yes, I could use that, too, but that's a few extra steps. (Honestly, I only needed it once, because it's easier than FontForge, but I got tired of my last version of MT haranguing me CONSTANTLY to buy it--even AFTER I bought it. I'm glad to see that that's fixed or removed or whatever in V8, because it was really starting to tee me off.
Yes, that was a problem which we fixed in MainType 8.

Enjoy the software!
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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Hitch » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:21 am

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:12 pm
No it is not universal. That's why I told you that information is not trustworthy.
OK; I probably thought it was the apex height, or the stem, but, as I said, what matters is having a single sourced comparative point. It doesn't really matter if "height of the character cell" is unique to The Other Unnamed Font Manager ;-), what matters is that the software is measuring all the fonts in the manager by the same standard, so that I can know at a glance if Decorative Font #1 is a good/poor possible match for Base Narrative Font X. That's the real point, vis-a-vis the metrics. I truly wouldn't care if the FM said, "the font's base size is Xpt," or something else--it's just Apples to Apples, rather than Apples to Oranges.
If you ever see room for improvements, and are able to provide a short and clear specification, we might consider it. Right now it is so overwhelming, that I'm not sure what really matters.

One thing you mention is you also compare preview text side by side. As well as a waterfall. We have it on our to-do list, but are not sure if and how we will implement it.
That would be nice. One thing the other (not TG) Unnamed Font Manager has, that I do love mightily, is their quick-n-dirty mockup capability. Now...it is imperfect, fersure, but it's a nice, easy thing to use, to just throw a few fonts together and stare at them quickly. THAT is a super-nice feature. I surely wish that MT had that. I love that.
I can be short about competing font managers; more and more people make use of our cross grade discount, so we know we are doing something good :D
I don't blame you, and yes, I suspect that there are other annoyed and angry rats off of that particular ship, given what happened with the new release. I was honestly open-mouthed with shock, when I saw the new layout. IDIOTIC.
Yes, that was a problem which we fixed in MainType 8.

Enjoy the software!
Thanks. I've actually had the license for a while, and I do like it a lot. Don't let my moaning about the font metrics convince you otherwise, I'm quite fond of it.

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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Erwin Denissen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:57 am

Hitch wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:21 am
Thanks. I've actually had the license for a while, and I do like it a lot. Don't let my moaning about the font metrics convince you otherwise, I'm quite fond of it.
I'm glad to know you like our software.
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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Alfred » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:15 am

Hitch wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
If you have ever used Typograf (the paid version--I have no idea if the free version also has it), the properties dialog contains a TON of information about the font itself. See screenshot for an example, from ACaslonReg.
They really ought to proofread their dialogs and fix silly typos like “WidhtClass” and “Heigth [of the character cell]”. :shock:

BTW, thanks for introducing me to Typography Insight. Although it’s touted as a learning tool, that custom waterfall feature on its own looks likely to be worth the asking price (even for the slightly more expensive iPad version).
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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Hitch » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:13 pm

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:57 am
Hitch wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:21 am
Thanks. I've actually had the license for a while, and I do like it a lot. Don't let my moaning about the font metrics convince you otherwise, I'm quite fond of it.
I'm glad to know you like our software.
I do, very much. My latest undertaking is figuring out a new base folder for ALL my fonts, divvied into all their proper categories. yeeeeccchhh. I debated on using tags, for the purposes of segregation, rather than sub-folders, but...I don't know. I want to get it right, so that I don't have to redo it AGAIN. Once you have thousands of fonts, it gets onerous to keep moving them around, recategorizing, etc.

I do really like MT. It's become my primary go-to font manager.

Hitch

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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Hitch » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:16 pm

Alfred wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:15 am
Hitch wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
If you have ever used Typograf (the paid version--I have no idea if the free version also has it), the properties dialog contains a TON of information about the font itself. See screenshot for an example, from ACaslonReg.
They really ought to proofread their dialogs and fix silly typos like “WidhtClass” and “Heigth [of the character cell]”. :shock:
Meh...Alexander has thousands of free users, and it doesn't faze me. I use it for other reasons. ;-) For what he asks, I guess I'm reasonably happy with the quality--the spelling errors, about which I'm usually a tartar, seem insignificant in that particular context.
BTW, thanks for introducing me to Typography Insight. Although it’s touted as a learning tool, that custom waterfall feature on its own looks likely to be worth the asking price (even for the slightly more expensive iPad version).
I find it quite handy. If memory serves, it was quite cheap, too. ;-)

Hitch

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Re: Some MTPro V8.0.0.1124 64Bit questions--Glyphs and "Library"

Post by Alfred » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Hitch wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:16 pm
BTW, thanks for introducing me to Typography Insight. Although it’s touted as a learning tool, that custom waterfall feature on its own looks likely to be worth the asking price (even for the slightly more expensive iPad version).
I find it quite handy.
Yes, it is.
Hitch wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:16 pm
If memory serves, it was quite cheap, too. ;-)
And yes, it was! :)
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