Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

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Marcel
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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Marcel » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:23 pm

William wrote:I am not sure what you are wanting from Roshan in the way of a specification.

Could you possibly produce a specification document please with a ? character in each place where you need some information from Roshan or someone else so that gradually a specification can be put together by changing each ? character for some information that you need in order to proceed please?

When I say a specification document, just some text in a post in this thread would be fine.

It is not clear to me exactly what information you need from Roshan.
Hi William,

sorry I didn't see your last post. Andjc answered about the requirements, and I'm quite confident that he will complete.

I don't know a single word of Indic languages except a reminder of a Sanskrit poem, and Mahatma Gandhi's autobiography has come to me in a German translation from its English translation, as it was written in Gujarati. So what to await as a specification for Tirhuta keyboard? I really don't know, but imagined that characters are mapped to keys as in Devanagari, and there are some sequences (called ligatures, as probably they display as clusters).

The clue is that where Tirhuta is used, today Devanagari is written, as stated in TUS. Thank you for the citations.

So I imagine that a Tirhuta keyboard layout must fit on a Devanagari keyboard. This is why I now think about mapping Tirhuta to Devanagari by matching the Unicode character names.

So I'll make a table and link it here, because I think that a list of 101 characters, as many as are used in Tirhuta according to TUS, is too cumbersome a post. Making it in Excel allows to export it in Word and in PDF. Word and Excel tables are fine because of their being modifiable. I use Word Starter 2010 and Excel Starter 2010, delivered as Office Starter 2010 with my netbook as I bought it in 2012.

Marcel

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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by Marcel » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:59 pm

andjc wrote:
Marcel wrote: I suggest splitting the project into three stages.
  • 1 Basic layout, facilitating font testing.
    2 Complete layout for Tirhuta.
    3 Bilingual layout, including Tirhuta and English.
Steps one and two need to really be tackled at the same time for languages using complex scripts.
Hi Andjc

A complete layout for Tirhuta must include many other characters that are taken in other scripts and are used in Tirhuta, as listed in TUS 15 cited by William:
http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode8.0.0/ch15.pdf
So I thought that for a beginning, only the new dedicated Tirhuta characters are to be mapped. But perhaps I'm wrong. Surely I'm wrong, as totally ignorant of Indic Scripts.
andjc wrote: And step 3 really isn't necessary and adds a level of complexity the layout really doesn't need.
What do you refer to when talking about the layout? I had the user in my mind, and only he can tell you what he would be glad to find on one keyboard layout. If he is writing an e-mail in Tirhuta while browsing the internet for English information, he would have to constantly toggle forth and back between two separate layouts. Then possibly he is writing bilingual documentation or scholar works, whatever. As I am making a complex layout for French, I'm really not going to deny such a need to other users of other scripts. Think about the many Unicode symbols and emoticons, that are common to all languages, and need a compose tree for support. As about how to design this, that depends on the part of English Roshan and other Tirhuta users are using at work. I know of Indic poets who write English poems, as a way to gather full audience in cultural life and not confine themselves writing in a language they are almost the only people to understand, given that not many strangers are learning even Devanagari, let alone Tirhuta. So there may be a need to constantly toggle between two cultures, and a bilingual keyboard layout may be a useful integration tool.

The idea is that now the job is being done, to aim high as well. Later it could be too late.
andjc wrote: Key information needed is

A) which keys produce which characters or groups of characters
B) is input visually based or logically based?
May you please explain this, I don't understand well. But the first thing would be for me to learn Indic.
andjc wrote: In this context how does the user expect to type complex grapheme clusters ...
I believe that that depends also on how numerous these clusters are in the language. Are there one dozen of them, or about fifty? A keyboard layout allows for about 46 times 8 equal 376 ligatures of 4 or mostly 16 code units, that is 2 or mostly 8 Tirhuta and other SMP characters per keystroke.
andjc wrote: and what level of remapping of input is required behind the scences?
What are scences please? Two searches on the internet bring up this: http://www.how-do-you-spell.com/scence
andjc wrote: C) does backspace delete last inputed character, last stored character, or a grapheme cluster?
I don't have any control over this parameter. To program this in a Windows keyboard driver, we must ask a software engineer. Not only I don't know Indic, but over this I'm not an engineer.
andjc wrote: I had started work on a template for keyboard layout requirements but haven't had time to finish it yet.
I beg you to do this job and to finish the specs template. This will be of great help for Roshan. I trust that now there is an urgent need for help, you will find the time to work out how an ideal performative Tirhuta keyboard must function to be of maximum usefulness.

Best

Marcel

Marcel
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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by Marcel » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:18 pm

Roshan wrote:My Language name is Maithili & typing script is Tirhuta. Unicode Organisation has already accepted Tirhuta Script in their 7th version. but yet not available in the typing and also not available in Unicdoe font. Please guide me to crate Tirhuta Keyboard layout for typing & Tirhuta Script for font.
A TrueType Tirhuta font is already available for free download:
http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/pag ... ytelv8889u

I got the link from a request to the Unicode Consortium. Acknowledgments may be addressed to the Consortium.

Best,

Marcel

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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Marcel » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:25 pm

William wrote:> Do you have glyphs?

That is a very interesting question.
Hi William,

I wrote a request to the Unicode Consortium using the Contact form, and Sarasvati sent me the link to a Tirhuta Font page, which I posted in reply to Roshan's initial request:
http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/pag ... ytelv8889u

I'm very glad about this help from the Unicode Consortium, and I'm now going to personally thank Sarasvati for this valuable hint that resolves almost one half or even more of Roshan's demand.

All the best,

Marcel

Richard W
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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by Richard W » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:42 pm

Marcel wrote: A TrueType Tirhuta font is already available for free download:
http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/pag ... ytelv8889u
Unfortunately, changing the cmap table to use Unicode may be illegal.

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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by William » Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:52 pm

Marcel wrote: The idea is that now the job is being done, to aim high as well. Later it could be too late.
Oh excellently put!

William

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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:03 pm

When it comes to making the Unicode font, one could use Scanahand to get something to get started.

William

Richard W
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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Richard W » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:04 pm

If anyone wants to help by creating a keyboard, I suggest the following approach:

1) Either use an Inscript (perhaps better, Inscript 5.1) keyboard layout, or convert a Windows Devanagari layout.
2) Squeeze in the unsupported characters - they're useful if you're expecting to use the keyboard for testing fonts, and might actually be necessary for normal text.
3) If not already included, add ZWJ and ZWNJ just in case they're actually needed. Typical bindings are:

ZWJ: ctrl-shift-1 or altGr-shift-space
ZWNJ: ctrl-shift-2 or altGr-space.

4) Test keyboard on user.

As far as I can see, Tirhuta is mostly just another North Indian extreme font variant. If you need a font to test the keyboard, map Tirhuta to Bengali with some arbitrary mappings for characters that don't correspond.

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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by William » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:27 pm

Marcel wrote:
andjc wrote: Key information needed is

A) which keys produce which characters or groups of characters
B) is input visually based or logically based?
May you please explain this, I don't understand well. But the first thing would be for me to learn Indic.
As I understand it, the situation is something like this, bodged into English so as to give an example. I am happy for someone to correct me if I have not got it quite right.

The Indian languages are each not an alphabet they are each an abugida.

Suppose that there were a language like the following, using English characters.

One letter is a (pa) that is there is an inherent a. If one wants a different vowel one adds it after the (pa) and it suppresses the inherent a. For example (pa)o to give po.

Sometimes though the vowel is logically after the (pa) but is displayed before it.

Now, this is just to give an idea, I am not saying that an o does not do it but that an e does do it, I am just using o and e here to try to explain how I think it goes. Suppose that in my hypothetical constructed script that an e does do it.

Then what is logically in the text file

(pa)e

would be displayed on the screen as

ep

so the visual order on the screen or in print is not the same as the logical order in the file.

Another issue is the virama.

Suppose that the script has (pa) and (ra) as two letters.

There could be an item (is it a ligature or a grapheme cluster or what?) such that there is a pr sound.

So (pa) is as pa in the English word part and (ra) is as ra in the English word ranch and one can also have (pa)(-a)(ra) as the pra in the English word prance.

The (-a) bit is the virama.

Now although it can be that the (pa)(-a)(ra) is displayed as (pa)(-a)(ra) sometimes (often? mostly?) the (pa)(-a)(ra) would be displayed as if it is one glyph, different from any of the glyphs used in (pa)(-a)(ra).

I have no idea what happens if, continuing my hypothetical script above, there is an e after the (pa)(-a)(ra) mentioned above or the different glyph. It might be that the (pa)(-a)(ra)e sequence sometimes leads to an entirely different glyph altogether.

So we need to find out from Roshan what happens for each of the cases that can occur in the Tirhuta script.

I hope that this helps.

If anyone can improve on this attempt at an explanation, please do, as it will be helpful to everybody.

William

Richard W
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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by Richard W » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:21 pm

William wrote:Now although it can be that the (pa)(-a)(ra) is displayed as (pa)(-a)(ra) sometimes (often? mostly?) the (pa)(-a)(ra) would be displayed as if it is one glyph, different from any of the glyphs used in (pa)(-a)(ra).

I have no idea what happens if, continuing my hypothetical script above, there is an e after the (pa)(-a)(ra) mentioned above or the different glyph. It might be that the (pa)(-a)(ra)e sequence sometimes leads to an entirely different glyph altogether.
It can be worse than that.

I'm going to switch notation. (p) is the basic letter form, (p') is the form with visible virama, (p-) is the form on the left as first element of a cluster, (/p) is the form below, as the second element, (p/) is the form as a superscript mark for the first element, and (p=) is the form on the left as the second element of a cluster. Finally, there's (p+r) for a fused combination. For vowels like E, there's a form before the consonant (e-) and a form above - say (\e). In Devanagari, they're encoded separately, and the choice should really be a matter of font style. In the Newa script of Nepal, for example, whether 'e' appears before or above the 'pa' depends on the shape of the 'pa' - for some letters it goes before, some it goes above. Likewise, the 'r' may go before or below the 'p', depending on the style of the font, as, I believe, in Malayalam. Next, as in at least some styles of Devanagari, the 'p' and 'r' may not combine, so in Hindi one would see what looked like (p')(e-)(r). In Marathi (also in the Devanagari script), this would be written (e-)(p')(r).

So, <p, -a, r, e> could be rendered as:

(p+r)(\e), (e-)(p+r), (p-)(r)(\e), (e-)(p-)(r), (p)(/r)(\e), (e-)(p)(/r), (p/)(r)(\e) (I'm not sure of the order of p/ and e\), (e-)(p/)(r), (r=)(p)(\e), (e-)(r=)(p), (p')(r)(\e), (e-)(p')(r) or (p')(e-)(r).

Some people, and also fonts, like to think of (p/)(r) as being base letter 'r' with a superscript 'p' following it.

E goes before or on top. U typically goes below or after. O often splits into two pieces, one like E and one after the consonant, as in Tirhuta. I thought I'd keep things simple.

Until you are familiar with what Tirhuta does, I suggest you stick to supporting the phonetic rather than the visual order.

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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by William » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:16 am

Richard W wrote:
Marcel wrote: A TrueType Tirhuta font is already available for free download:
http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/pag ... ytelv8889u
Unfortunately, changing the cmap table to use Unicode may be illegal.
Unless it is possible to contact the copyright owner and that person either joins in this activity and produces a Unicode font or gives permission to adapt a copy of the font so as to produce a Unicode font.

William

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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by William » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:24 am

Richard W wrote: Until you are familiar with what Tirhuta does, I suggest you stick to supporting the phonetic rather than the visual order.
Yes, that would seem to be a good idea: just try to get something that works at a basic level to get things going.

Thank you for the explanation.

William

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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by Alfred » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:51 am

William wrote:
Richard W wrote:
Marcel wrote: A TrueType Tirhuta font is already available for free download:
http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/pag ... ytelv8889u
Unfortunately, changing the cmap table to use Unicode may be illegal.
Unless it is possible to contact the copyright owner and that person either joins in this activity and produces a Unicode font or gives permission to adapt a copy of the font so as to produce a Unicode font.

William
There is a contact email address on this page.
FC11.0 Pro (Help) + MT7.0 (Help) • Windows 10

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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:28 am

Marcel wrote:.... that resolves almost one half or even more of Roshan's demand.
Hi Marcel.

I hope that you do not mind me mentioning this, but I feel that it is an important matter.

I know from the Unicode mailing list that your email is based in France.

I am not a linguist yet I am aware of a matter that can cause confusion between English and French.

Actually Roshan did not make a demand.

Roshan made a request.

The verb demander in French does not translate into English as "to demand" but into "to ask".

In English, "to demand" is forceful.

There was an exchange in the Unicode mailing list some years ago where I was accused of making demands, though that was not through an English and French translation situation.

Here are some links to the posts and to some dictionary entries.

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0099.html

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0100.html

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0101.html

http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicod ... /0129.html

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/demand

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... nglish/ask

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... sh/request

I hope that this helps.

William

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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Marcel » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:20 am

William wrote:
Marcel wrote:.... that resolves almost one half or even more of Roshan's demand.
Hi Marcel.

I hope that you do not mind me mentioning this, but I feel that it is an important matter.
Hi William,

I'm very grateful to you for making me aware of the difference of tone that is implied through the distinction between request and demand. Effectively after using two times the word request, I altered my expression by using demand:
Marcel wrote: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5806&start=15#p26520
I wrote a request to the Unicode Consortium using the Contact form, and Sarasvati sent me the link to a Tirhuta Font page, which I posted in reply to Roshan's initial request:
William wrote: I know from the Unicode mailing list that your email is based in France.

I am not a linguist yet I am aware of a matter that can cause confusion between English and French.
That's right. And as my mother tongue is German, I understand even better that by talking of a "demand," I actually could have meant what in German is a Forderung instead of an Anfrage.
William wrote:Actually Roshan did not make a demand.

Roshan made a request.
I fully agree. Roshan did never mind to make any "demand" for font and keyboard support. He only asked for help:
Roshan wrote:Please guide me to crate Tirhuta Keyboard layout for typing & Tirhuta Script for font.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5784#p26409
Roshan wrote:Please help me
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5784#p26443
William wrote:The verb demander in French does not translate into English as "to demand" but into "to ask".

In English, "to demand" is forceful.
But please permit me to note that I did not use the verb, I did not write: "That resolves half of the support Roshan demanded," but only: "that resolves almost one half or even more of Roshan's demand." In English, as well as in French (and in German), a demand (or demande, Nachfrage is also the economical fact of a good being asked for:
1.2 [mass noun] The desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item:
a recent slump in demand
[count noun]: a demand for specialists
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/demand
And I hurry up thanking you for the many links you provided to dictionaries, among which the above, and to the Unicode Mailing List exchange which illustrates very well the difference between "requests or suggestions" and "demands".

Perhaps, in this sense, I could have written less fautily:
"I'm very glad about this help from the Unicode Consortium, and I'm now going to personally thank Sarasvati for this valuable hint that meets almost one half or even more of Roshan's demand.

To complete, I must confess that my request on the Unicode Contact form was about importing glyph images from screenshots of the Code charts to make a Tirhuta font. This is not extracting the font (which is prohibited), but it is a waste of time, I've been answered.


Font for Tirhuta script

Unfortunately there is even more than one word wrong in my last post, as the linked font is not Unicode conformant, it only maps ASCII to Tirhuta, like the legacy fonts that ship with WordPerfect for backwards compatibility, and despite of being maintained, it does not seem to have been updated since Tirhuta has been encoded in Unicode. The citations of the UCD and more lead me to the assumption that the font is up do date. We will have to make a request for a Unicode version of this font, which would be easy to perform as the glyph problem is actually resolved, at least to a certain extent (given the complexity of the script, which posts I'll answer next).

Marcel

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