How to view and edit substitution tables

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Hermes14
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How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Hermes14 »

Greetings,

Many thanks to the High-Logic team for their many improvements to OTD Preview over the past few weeks.

I'm still trying to get the hang of OTD. Consider the attached comparison of a VOLT table and its import in OTD:
substitution-table-VOLT.jpg
substitution-table-VOLT.jpg (66.95 KiB) Viewed 6444 times
substitution-table-OTD.jpg
substitution-table-OTD.jpg (425.79 KiB) Viewed 6444 times
Questions:

1. How do we view the entries in the substitution table padj_vwl\RTm? The View field is not available.

2. How do we edit the entries in the substitution table padj_vwl\RTm? The Substitution Table is not apparently editable.

3. How do we determine or change what kind of substitution is being applied in the table?

A search for 'substitution table' in the manual does not yield an answer to the above two.

4. Do I need to apply "Break classes"?

5. How do I get "Break classes" to work? Highlighting padj_vwl in the left pane and applying "Break classes" doesn't seem to do anything.

Apologies if the answers are staring me in the face but I'm not seeing it -)

Any pointers related to the above are appreciated. Thanks in advance for your guidance.

Best wishes
Erwin Denissen
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Erwin Denissen »

FontCreator can do far more complex things than you can do with Volt.

That is why some oversimplified things in Volt are less intuitive in FontCreator.

You will need to select the substitution lookup in the left tree.

The break feature has nothing to do with this subject, and usually it is better to not use it.
Erwin Denissen
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Hermes14
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Hermes14 »

Many thanks. However, I'm still not clear
Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:12 pm FontCreator can do far more complex things than you can do with Volt.
I'm eagerly looking forward to learning all that FC is capable of in this regard!
Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:12 pm That is why some oversimplified things in Volt are less intuitive in FontCreator.

You will need to select the substitution lookup in the left tree.
Fair enough. Once the lookup (e.g. padj_vwl) is selected in the left tree, what do I do with it? E.g., How do I view the individual substitution table (e.g. padj_vwl\RTm) and edit it?

For tables that don't use classes the answers are clear, a viewing field comes up. But what about the case of the screenshot provided in the original inquiry? How can I view what's happening when glyph classes are used instead of individual glyphs?
Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:12 pm The break feature has nothing to do with this subject, and usually it is better to not use it.
Ok, thanks.
Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I have moved your support request from the Tutorials and Solutions forum to the Support forum.
Before asking a question on FontCreator look here for possible solutions and tutorials. Please do not post support requests here.
My FontsReviews: MainTypeFont CreatorHelpFC15 + MT12.0 @ Win 10 64-bit build 19045.2486
Erwin Denissen
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Hermes14 wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:41 pm Many thanks. However, I'm still not clear
Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:12 pm FontCreator can do far more complex things than you can do with Volt.
I'm eagerly looking forward to learning all that FC is capable of in this regard!
We've seen fonts which contain contextual lookups which refer to contextual lookups. This is not possible within VOLT for example. Also descriptions for stylistic sets are not possible with VOLT.
Hermes14 wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:41 pm
Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:12 pm That is why some oversimplified things in Volt are less intuitive in FontCreator.

You will need to select the substitution lookup in the left tree.
Fair enough. Once the lookup (e.g. padj_vwl) is selected in the left tree, what do I do with it? E.g., How do I view the individual substitution table (e.g. padj_vwl\RTm) and edit it?
You can select all sub tables in the combo box as seen at the upper right area. In your example you are actually looking at padj_vwl\RTm. If you wish to see the substitution table you will need to look for the reference lookup named padj_vwl\RTm_ref which happens to be a SingleAdjustment lookup.

I'm confident we both agree the contextual lookups should be made more intuitive, but so far we've never heard any suggestions about how to accomplish this. So if you have ideas, let us know!
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Hermes14
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Hermes14 »

Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:26 pm We've seen fonts which contain contextual lookups which refer to contextual lookups. This is not possible within VOLT for example. Also descriptions for stylistic sets are not possible with VOLT.
Hmm.. was aware that OpenType (but not VOLT) supported the second, but not aware of the first. Would like to learn more about this.
Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:26 pm You can select all sub tables in the combo box as seen at the upper right area. In your example you are actually looking at padj_vwl\RTm. If you wish to see the substitution table you will need to look for the reference lookup named padj_vwl\RTm_ref which happens to be a SingleAdjustment lookup.
Can see the subtables combo box; to the right there is a "gears" button that brings up the Subtable Manager. And to the right there is a Substitution Tables column. But can't find

i) the place where I'm supposed to edit XPlacement, XAdvance etc. for this subtable, nor
ii) a viewing field for glyphs in the subtable.

I assume that i) must be there but can't find it.. e.g., XAdvance=200

Is ii) something yet to be implemented?
Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:26 pm I'm confident we both agree the contextual lookups should be made more intuitive, but so far we've never heard any suggestions about how to accomplish this. So if you have ideas, let us know!
Will keep this in mind as I continue to study and, eventually, master OTD. Many thanks!
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Hermes14 wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:46 pm Can see the subtables combo box; to the right there is a "gears" button that brings up the Subtable Manager. And to the right there is a Substitution Tables column. But can't find

i) the place where I'm supposed to edit XPlacement, XAdvance etc. for this subtable, nor
ii) a viewing field for glyphs in the subtable.

I assume that i) must be there but can't find it.. e.g., XAdvance=200

Is ii) something yet to be implemented?
In the treeview you'll find a lookup named padj_vwl\RTm_ref. It is grouped in the Lookups section.
Lookups.png
Lookups.png (9.16 KiB) Viewed 6419 times

Since you have 750 lookups it is a bit hard to find :shock:
SingleAdjustment.png
SingleAdjustment.png (60.64 KiB) Viewed 6419 times
Erwin Denissen
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Hermes14
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Hermes14 »

Ah! Was looking at the lookup under the Features tree, which was so long I didn't see the Lookups tree underneath..

Yes, VOLT is "oversimplified" and hides things from the user in comparison to OTD, which appears to more precisely mirror the structure of the actual OpenType tables.

Question: Why are some tables editable under the Features tree and not others (e.g., contextuals)? With so many lookups, jumping from the Lookups tree to the Features tree and back is inefficient.

There seems to be enough space to the right of the Substitution Tables column to place a dialog for choosing and editing sublookups.

Or perhaps add a sublookups branch to the Features tree.

In any case these things no doubt require very careful thought. Upon getting more familiar with OTD, will be in a position to make better suggestions :-)

Many thanks!
Erwin Denissen
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Hermes14 wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:51 pm Question: Why are some tables editable under the Features tree and not others (e.g., contextuals)? With so many lookups, jumping from the Lookups tree to the Features tree and back is inefficient.
Because those lookups will all be applied, so if you also included a lookup which is actually a substitution table of a contextual lookup, it would also be applied regardless of the context. I hope my explanation makes sense.
Erwin Denissen
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Hermes14
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Hermes14 »

Erwin Denissen wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:00 pm
Hermes14 wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:51 pm Question: Why are some tables editable under the Features tree and not others (e.g., contextuals)? With so many lookups, jumping from the Lookups tree to the Features tree and back is inefficient.
Because those lookups will all be applied, so if you also included a lookup which is actually a substitution table of a contextual lookup, it would also be applied regardless of the context. I hope my explanation makes sense.
I think so.. contextual fields and substitution tables are decoupled, allowing for greater flexibility.

One idea for consideration: From a contextual lookup under a feature, perhaps under "Substitution Table", perhaps add an option to right-click on the name of a particular substitution table and to jump to its place in the Lookups tree.

And from a substitution table in the lookups tree, perhaps add a way to see what contextual fields if any use that table and allow the user to select and jump back to that contextual field under the Feature tree.

Or something along these lines... Does that make sense?

Again, many thanks!
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Hermes14 wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:11 pmOne idea for consideration: From a contextual lookup under a feature, perhaps under "Substitution Table", perhaps add an option to right-click on the name of a particular substitution table and to jump to its place in the Lookups tree.
Consider it done. We've just released another update (11.0.0.2407) which implements this feature request.
Hermes14 wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:11 pm And from a substitution table in the lookups tree, perhaps add a way to see what contextual fields if any use that table and allow the user to select and jump back to that contextual field under the Feature tree.

Or something along these lines... Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes sense, so I've added it to the to-do list.
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Re: How to view and edit substitution tables

Post by Hermes14 »

:D Many thanks! :D
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