Pointing hand bug in preview?

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PJMiller
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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by PJMiller » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:34 am

Psymon wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:02 pm
PJMiller wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:37 am
Not a good idea to run it on the whole font!
Oh no! I already ran it on all four of my fonts (that I'm currently working on)!
This would only screw up the characters which intentionally have a negative offset like the combining diacritics.

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 am

PJMiller wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:34 am
This would only screw up the characters which intentionally have a negative offset like the combining diacritics.
No it would not. As pointed out several times, the Left side-bearing is not the same thing as the Left side-bearing point or origin of the y axis. If combining accents have a negative side-bearing they will still have the same negative side-bearing when the Left side-bearing point is set to zero to remove the offset.

See my screen shot where the down-pointing index still has left and right side-bearings of 62 funits, but the Left side-bearing point has been reset to zero, removing any offset.
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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:50 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 am
PJMiller wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:34 am
This would only screw up the characters which intentionally have a negative offset like the combining diacritics.
No it would not. As pointed out several times, the Left side-bearing is not the same thing as the Left side-bearing point or origin of the y axis. If combining accents have a negative side-bearing they will still have the same negative side-bearing when the Left side-bearing point is set to zero to remove the offset.
Well, as also "pointed out several times," I've been left more confused by the answers here than I was finding things resolved. ;)

Thankfully, however, I think I am now starting to grasp the difference between "left side bearing" and "left side bearing point" -- I kept thinking you were repeatedly talking about the same thing -- but what you said about running that script (to set x=0) not having an effect on things like diacriticals doesn't seem to be true. In the previous version of my fonts -- before I ran that x=0 script on my entire fonts -- in one of them my circumflex accent (for example) had an offset of 70, but after running that script it now is set at 0 (while the LSB/RSB didn't change).

So that would seem to disprove what you just said, regarding what supposedly wouldn't happen with what clearly did happen with my font, but here's some related questions...

1. I have no composite characters in any of my fonts. I did at first, of course, when I first ran the script to create all the extra composite characters (with accents 'n' stuff), but then converted them to simple because my understanding is that composite characters in fonts can cause issues sometimes, and that it's better not to have them -- please do tell me if I'm wrong about that! In that regard, however, if my font isn't creating accented composite characters "on the fly," then what difference does it make whether those various diactriticals have an offset anyway? I don't even see what purpose those diacritical glyphs serve other than if, for some odd/unusual reason, one wanted to type in just an accent without any character at all with it.

2. With that said (#1 here), if there's still a reason to have an offset on some characters, is it only diacritical marks that I should be concerned about having an offset? If the answer to that is "no," then which other characters should have an offset?

3. I don't even know how I ended up with an offset on so many of my characters in the first place -- not just diacritical marks, but tons of my glyphs had an offset to them before (but now they don't, after running that script). I can't seem to find where/how to change that (other than to set x=0). Any idea what I might have done "wrong" to make that offset occur in the first place (and all over the place), if only so that I don't make that same mistake again?

4. Back to diacriticals (and any other characters that might need an offset), although I as yet don't know how to change the offset for any particular character (re #3 here), assuming there is a way to change that, how does one know by how much to change it, i.e. how much offset to give any particular diacritical (or whatever)? Is it a matter of "eyeballing" it? Like, in the preview window would I type in, say, a lowercase "a," then next to it add whichever diacritical mark, and then change the offset on the latter until the mark is floating above the "a" such that it looks correct? If that's right -- I'm just totally guessing here -- then again we're back to #3 with regard to how one changes the offset.

5. For the fonts that I just "screwed up" by running that script on my entire font(s), is my easiest solution now to simply go back to my previous version (before I ran that script) and just copy/paste those specific characters to the latest version? That does seem to be a simple solution to correcting things as they are now, but how do I know that the offset was set correctly in that previous version? Just because there is (was) an offset before, doesn't mean that it was right. In that regard, I would do it all from scratch now instead, if that's better, and just make adjustments manually now and get everything right, rather than just simply "how it was before."

Once again, my apologies if I'm a bit slow here, I'm still sick-as-a-dawg and my head is still rather foggy (it's been two weeks now that I've had this dang flu!). :(

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:34 am

Why can't I get any answers to my questions? I'm starting to think that there must be something so ridiculously obvious that I'm just not "seeing," but in the the glyph edit window I don't see any indicator for that, and nowhere can I find anything (re changing the offset, or whatever else), and the help files provide virtually no information at all on that (if you search in there for "offset" there's literally nothing at all that's of help).

Come on, guys, am I that clueless? I'm not even sick any more (after two weeks of illness), I'm as clear-headed as can be, but I haven't done any work on my fonts in the last week because I have no idea what to do about this (or these) issue(s). :roll:

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Erwin Denissen » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:35 pm

I'm not going to answer all your questions, but I'll try to explain what I think is best.

While designing fonts, it is usually smart to keep composite glyphs, unless they are just a way to get a start for a final result. Most composites can remain a composite, some examples are agrave, aacute, acircumflex, ograve, ntilde. Other glyphs are too complex but can get a good start through complete composites. They require some fine-tuning. For example the Bitcoin Symbol.

In general composites which end up with overlapping contours require attention (manually adjustments).

While it is perfectly normal to design your glyph outlines without taking care of the horizontal position, most font designers will ensure the final font only contain glyph outlines where the left side bearing point is set at x=0.

Usually marks (non spacing / combining diacritical) will have a negative LSB and a AW which is zero.

Do inspect fonts like Garava and Bahnschrift to see how other font designers have set these values.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:12 pm

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:35 pm
I'm not going to answer all your questions, but I'll try to explain what I think is best.
I appreciate the effort, Erwin (seriously), but you didn't actually answer any of my questions. ;) I do understand -- now -- the reason/purpose for having an offset (for things like diacriticals), I just don't know how to create/change such offsets. Like, in the latest version of my font, I mistakenly ran that script to set x=0 to all my glyphs, not realize that I was screwing some things up -- so how do I fix that now?

Other than diacritical marks, I can't think of any other glyphs that might need an offset -- are there any, other than diacriticals? -- but even if the program creates those offsets automatically, is there no way to make adjustments to them? Surely there are times when one would want to?

Nowhere in the program can I find a way to change the offset (or create an offset in the first place) -- and now that I've screwed up my font I'm not sure how to get things fixed up again (other than to copy/paste my diacriticals from an earlier version of my font... but then, how do I know they were right to begin with???).

Plus I discovered that I had offsets (to "regular" characters) all over the place -- how on earth did I create those? I certainly didn't create those intentionally, but the fact that they were there obviously means that there's some way to create/edit those offsets.
While designing fonts, it is usually smart to keep composite glyphs, unless they are just a way to get a start for a final result. Most composites can remain a composite, some examples are agrave, aacute, acircumflex, ograve, ntilde. Other glyphs are too complex but can get a good start through complete composites. They require some fine-tuning.
Oh, that's interesting. I distinctly remember reading somewhere that one should avoid having any composite glyphs at all, because apparently they can cause issues at times -- I don't know what those issues are, or in what contexts that they occur, but I'm sure I read that somewhere (and hence the reason that I have no composite glyphs in any of my fonts -- although many characters do start out as such, of course).
For example the Bitcoin Symbol.
Oh, crap, another glyph for me to add in all my fonts! Just what I needed. :P

Anyway, thanks for your reply, once again, it's appreciated -- even though I'm still confused! :(

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Erwin Denissen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:31 am

Psymon wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:12 pm
Erwin Denissen wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:35 pm
I'm not going to answer all your questions, but I'll try to explain what I think is best.
I appreciate the effort, Erwin (seriously), but you didn't actually answer any of my questions. ;) I do understand -- now -- the reason/purpose for having an offset (for things like diacriticals), I just don't know how to create/change such offsets. Like, in the latest version of my font, I mistakenly ran that script to set x=0 to all my glyphs, not realize that I was screwing some things up -- so how do I fix that now?
Most issues should be solved by another run of complete composites.
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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:41 pm

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:31 am
Most issues should be solved by another run of complete composites.
Well, this is confusing for me. Please correct me if/when I'm wrong in my understanding of this, based on what I've been reading here so far...

The only glyphs that should have an offset are the aforementioned diacriticals, whlle all other glyphs should have no offset -- is that right?

Diacriticals (which have an offset) are used to make composite characters (which, in the end result, do not have an offset), but in and of themselves diacriticals aren't "composites" of anything.

So what is it that you're saying I should run "complete composites" on? The diacriticals? They're not composite characters -- they're used to create composite characters.

Does my confusion, at least, make sense? LOL ;)

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Erwin Denissen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:57 pm

Psymon wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:41 pm
The only glyphs that should have an offset are the aforementioned diacriticals, whlle all other glyphs should have no offset -- is that right?
No, all glyphs should have their left side bearing point set at x=0, thus offset = 0.
Psymon wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:41 pm
So what is it that you're saying I should run "complete composites" on? The diacriticals? They're not composite characters -- they're used to create composite characters.
No, I'm saying, to first ensure all glyphs have their left side bearing point set at x=0. Then run complete composite on all composites that need to be fixed.
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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:29 pm

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:57 pm
Psymon wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:41 pm
The only glyphs that should have an offset are the aforementioned diacriticals, whlle all other glyphs should have no offset -- is that right?
No, all glyphs should have their left side bearing point set at x=0, thus offset = 0.
This isn't helping -- ha ha. Okay, if all glyphs (including diacriticals) should have no offset, then what's this whole discussion about? I ran that script on all my characters to set the offset to 0 and was told that that was a mistake, that my diacriticals (at least) need that offset -- and I actually understood why they do, but now you're telling me that they shouldn't.
I'm saying, to first ensure all glyphs have their left side bearing point set at x=0. Then run complete composite on all composites that need to be fixed.
If no glyphs should have an offset, and if I then run that script to get rid of that offset on all my characters, then what is it that needs to be "fixed" afterwards? What got "broken" by running that script?

I just don't get this -- and I feel like there's something I'm just not getting here, something that should be obvious, staring me in the face, and I'm just not seeing it. :shock:

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Erwin Denissen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:39 pm

Please show us a character that has issues, so we can better understand your problems, and how to deal with them.
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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:41 pm

PS. to my last reply... another thing I don't understand here is how on earth an offset is created (or edited/changed) in the first place. I never even noticed (or paid attention to) that offset checkbox in the glyph properties dialog until recently, but upon doing so I discovered that I had offsets all over the place in various characters (and not just diaccriticals). Obviously those shouldn't be there, but how were they created? Nowhere in the program can I find anywhere to set/change the offset, I can only find where the offset is indicated, but you can't change that amount in there other than to set it to 0.

This makes no sense to me. How did I unintentionally create an offset in various characters -- how is it even possible! -- when I can't find anywhere in the program to adjust that offset? And yet, somehow I did manage to do so.

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Erwin Denissen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 pm

The offset is the horizontal position of the left side-bearing line.

Indeed the manual needs to be improved here. If someone if able to write a short description of this, then I'm happy to add it to the manual.
http://www.high-logic.com/fontcreator/m ... trics.html
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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:53 pm

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:39 pm
Please show us a character that has issues, so we can better understand your problems, and how to deal with them.
I'm slow -- I don't know what you want me to show you. This all started because I was trying to add a the 4 pointing hand glyphs to my font, then one of them was somehow pushed over, disappearing into the left margin (if it was the first character). I couldn't understand why that was happening but then Bhikkhu pointed out that I had an offset and to just check the checkbox to get rid of it.

How I created that offset in the first place, though -- when nowhere in the program can I find anywhere to change that offset (other than to set it to 0) -- I have no idea, but after Bhikkhu pointed that out I just poked around in my font, hitting characters here and there, and discovered that most were okay (set to 0) but several others did also have an offset.

And so then I found that script to set that to 0, and ran that on my whole font -- which I was then told was the wrong thing to do, because diacriticals need that offset (and I can understand why).

I'm happy to take screenshots if you need to "see" what I'm talking about, but I'm not sure of what -- doesn't the above (and previous/original) explanation(s) explain the issue?

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Re: Pointing hand bug in preview?

Post by Psymon » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:02 pm

Erwin Denissen wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 pm
The offset is the horizontal position of the left side-bearing line.
Yeah, that much I finally did learn. ;) So I know WHAT it is, but how do you edit (change) it? If I want to "manually" give a character an offset, how would I go about it? The thing is, I did do so before (unintentionally) because a number of my glyphs incorrectly had an offset, so obviously there has to be a way to give a glyph an offset -- but where/how?

And your comment here relates to that, too...
Indeed the manual needs to be improved here. If someone if able to write a short description of this, then I'm happy to add it to the manual.
http://www.high-logic.com/fontcreator/m ... trics.html
From that page, the manual currently says this (in part)...
In the Glyph Edit window there are two vertical lines (normally the glyph outline lies in between these lines) that represent the left and right side-bearings. These are shown by default but you can hide them through the Show Metrics button on the Drawing toolbar. The left and right side-bearings can be changed by dragging them to their desired position. You can also adjust the side-bearings through the Glyph Properties tool window. White space should be evenly distributed between the left and right side-bearings of glyphs except when font is specifically designed with ligatures for joining characters in a cursive script font.
Yes, that's what I see in the glyph edit window, too -- but where is this "point" that the LSB is referring to? I see the two lines for the LSB and RSB, but if a glyph has an offset, where/how is that indicated? There's no other, third line or anything (let alone something I could adjust).
Last edited by Psymon on Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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