Need help with Handwriting Font

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Psymon
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

I just don't know what the hell I'm doing, don't have any real understanding of this at all. I've been trying to get things to look like you have them in your previous explanations here, but I clearly must not understand this. It looks like I think that it should (as per your instructions), but it certainly doesn't substitute my "a" for "a.ender" when it's supposed to.

Could I trouble you to look at my font (attached here) and see what I did wrong? I would, of course, prefer to actually understand how to do it correctly myself, and know where I made the error, than for you to just fix it for me -- if it's not too much trouble.

And thank you SO much, of course. :)
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Walden.ttf
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Erwin Denissen
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Psymon wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:15 pm
Erwin Denissen wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:34 pm If your glyph has a Unicode name, then it is mapped to a codepoint. I wonder what character it is.
Oh, so you mean it's not so much for my own use, but rather to make it more user-friendly for the end-user?
No, the glyph names are mainly for your convenience, but are also used with several features within FontCreator, like automatically generating OpenType layout features. That is all described in the user manual.
Psymon wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:53 pm I just don't know what the hell I'm doing, don't have any real understanding of this at all. I've been trying to get things to look like you have them in your previous explanations here, but I clearly must not understand this. It looks like I think that it should (as per your instructions), but it certainly doesn't substitute my "a" for "a.ender" when it's supposed to.

Could I trouble you to look at my font (attached here) and see what I did wrong? I would, of course, prefer to actually understand how to do it correctly myself, and know where I made the error, than for you to just fix it for me -- if it's not too much trouble.
You are close ;-)

I do not see the substitution lookup yet, so do add it.

Also the chaining context lookup only has one rule, so you need to add the other one.
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

Erwin Denissen wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:45 pm You are close ;-)
Well, that's reassuring -- but I'm still lost. And on top of that, I feel stupid, and embarrassed for "not getting this," and for pestering you with my embarrassingly stupid not-getting-it. :oops:
I do not see the substitution lookup yet, so do add it.

Also the chaining context lookup only has one rule, so you need to add the other one.
I just don't understand what it is that I'm missing here, and what you mean that I'm missing a "rule." I tried very hard to follow your earlier instructions.

If, by "rule," you mean adding in the "Input" and "Lookahead" (two things) into that one "Chaining Context" dialog box there, then I did to both of those, as you said (i.e. putting in the @latn_letters class in both). If there's something else -- an entirely separate, additional "rule" -- that I'm supposed to put in, then I don't know what you're referring to, where that was in your instructions.

Also, just to pester you some more (sorry), can you confirm whether it screws things up if I change the name of a glyph after I've already done all the kerning, lookups, etc.? Like, if I change the name of my ligs (in my PUA) from just being named for the codepoint to being reflective of what it represents, doing so via the Glyph Properties dialogue, then does that name change automatically propagate throughout the font -- i.e. in whatever classes that glyph might belong to, lookups, etc.?

And any thoughts on my query regarding my lowercase "t," whether I would run into possible issues if I extended the crossbar out more, to look more like Thoreau's actual handwriting? I wouldn't go crazy or anything, but as it is I actually shortened it up quite a bit, compared to how he generally wrote it.
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Here is how to add another rule to the lookup:
AddRule.png
AddRule.png (154.13 KiB) Viewed 5540 times
AddRule2.png
AddRule2.png (154.96 KiB) Viewed 5539 times
Psymon wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:05 pm Also, just to pester you some more (sorry), can you confirm whether it screws things up if I change the name of a glyph after I've already done all the kerning, lookups, etc.? Like, if I change the name of my ligs (in my PUA) from just being named for the codepoint to being reflective of what it represents, doing so via the Glyph Properties dialogue, then does that name change automatically propagate throughout the font -- i.e. in whatever classes that glyph might belong to, lookups, etc.?
Yes, the new name will be used everywhere, so no worries. Just try it, you can always use the undo feature if you want to revert a change.
Psymon wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:05 pm And any thoughts on my query regarding my lowercase "t," whether I would run into possible issues if I extended the crossbar out more, to look more like Thoreau's actual handwriting? I wouldn't go crazy or anything, but as it is I actually shortened it up quite a bit, compared to how he generally wrote it.
If you don't mind, I stick to the technical questions.
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

Oh! I did it! Or I did something, anyway -- I went back over your instructions again, found where you talked about that "second rule," and I think I did what you said to do, and now it replaces "a" with "a.ender," except it's doing it ALL the time, even in the middle of the word.

Here's my newly-revised font again, if you don't mind taking a peek at it again.
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Walden.ttf
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Erwin Denissen »

You added two contextual lookups, while you need only one. Do take a look at the two screenshots in my previous post, and let us know your results.
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

Erwin Denissen wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:29 pm You added two contextual lookups, while you need only one. Do take a look at the two screenshots in my previous post, and let us know your results.
I think I did it! See attached! :)

Is it all "correct" now? The script compiles okay.

I'm still not sure if I did that @latn_letters class right though -- I added in basically "everything," virtually all my glyphs, not just "letters" but punctuation, numbers, symbols and everything, including the a.ender glyph, too. At least, that was the context in which I would think one would NOT want that ender character to show up -- although maybe I should delete all the punctuation and symbols???

I suppose that's basically up to me, what contexts I'd want these alts to show up under?

Thank you SO much for your help, Erwin! Hope I did get it all done correctly now, if you don't mind confirming that for me -- I'll attach this latest, seemingly-working-correctly version again here. :)

EDIT: I've been plugging away here, adding in additional "ender" glyphs, and everything seems to be working fine! Lots of tedious (but fun!) work ahead of me now -- coffee pot is on! :mrgreen:
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Walden.ttf
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Excellent, keep up the good work!
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

Erwin Denissen wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:43 am Excellent, keep up the good work!
Well, I'm just thrilled with how this is turning out! Getting these "enders" done (and I still have some more to do) has really made all the difference in getting my font looking that much closer to Thoreau's actual handwriting! Of course, I'll never be able to do that "perfectly," because his handwriting was about as imperfect and inconsistent as you can get, but here, I've re-done those handwriting/font comparisons that I included in my initial post in this thread...

Handwriting-Font_Comparison-01.jpg
Handwriting-Font_Comparison-01.jpg (928.61 KiB) Viewed 5503 times

Handwriting-Font_Comparison-02.jpg
Handwriting-Font_Comparison-02.jpg (350.5 KiB) Viewed 5503 times

Handwriting-Font_Comparison-03.jpg
Handwriting-Font_Comparison-03.jpg (1.15 MiB) Viewed 5503 times


As I said above, I still have some more enders to do, but now I'd also like to add in some "beginners" (or "starters," or whatever the word is -- is there a word letters that start a word???) -- at least, there's one at the moment I'd like to do, a bigger lowercase "s" for when it's at the beginning of a word, just as I created a bigger "ender" of that character, too. I've noticed that Thoreau often did his "s" bigger not just at the end of words, but also at the start, too -- and I think I could probably get away with using the same glyph for both?

But in any case, I don't know how to create that additional substitution -- could I trouble you to explain that for me?

I guess that's the thing about what I did so far with this first foray of mine in contextual alts -- I followed your instructions 'n' stuff, Erwin, but when I'm in that "Chaining Context" dialog box (especially) I don't quite understand what's going on in there, all I was doing was following instructions.

Let me guess here... If I want to do alts for letters at the beginning of the word, would I put my @LATIN class (what you had named @latn_letters) in the Input field, but then instead of also putting it in the Lookahead field, I instead put it in the Backtrack one (leaving Lookahead empty, of course)?

I haven't got a clue what the Substitution Tables field might be for -- but if that's something way more advanced than my needs right now, then never mind. ;)

I think I had another, separate question, but now I can't remember what it was (still waking up and starting my day). ;) In the meantime, though, just to reiterate the links in my first post, if anyone wants to try out my font in its latest incarnation, you can do so here...

http://www.psymon.com/fonts/thoreau.html

And, the latest version of the font (updated regularly, as I'm working on it) can be gotten here...

http://www.psymon.com/fonts/fonts/Walden.ttf

As I said at the beginning of this reply, I'm just giddy with delight over how this is all turning out! Thank you so much, once again, for all your help, Erwin. :D
Psymon
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

I can't find any info anywhere for how to do this stuff -- I can't even find a definition of "Backtrack." Searching the forums yields no results (apart from this thread, here) and there's nothing in the FC help about it, either.

Where does one go to learn how to do this stuff? I'm not saying that to be critical, rest assured, I'm genuinely asking quite sincerely -- where does any aspiring type designer go to learn how to use these sorts of features in this program?
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Psymon wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:05 amWhere does one go to learn how to do this stuff?
This stuff is like programming, and FontCreator is a software that allows users to do OpenType programming. The help documentation should tell us how to use the program, not how to do programming.

There are many possible ways to program OpenType features. There is a description of features such as Contextual Ligatures on the Microsoft website.

FontCreator is pretty smart. It will add a number of standard features automatically, and automatically generate kerning pair classes. However, I prefer to create my own kerning pair classes. It is more work, and I may make mistakes that I need to debug, but it gives me more control.

I learnt some stuff by opening professional fonts and looking at the code, and other stuff by trial and error, or by reading the forum and asking questions. I learnt some things from the TypeDrawers Forum, where there are several professional type designers who use other software like Fontographer.
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:09 am This stuff is like programming, and FontCreator is a software that allows users to do OpenType programming. The help documentation should tell us how to use the program, not how to do programming.
But that's the problem -- the help documentation doesn't tell us how to use the program. There isn't even basic definition for things -- like, when I'm in that Chaining Context dialog box, if I click on the "Help" button that you see in there, then one might expect to just get at least a simple definition of what you're seeing on that page -- Backtrack, Input, Lookahead, etc. -- but there's nothing, not even a definition of what those terms mean, let alone any help in how to use make use of that feature.
There are many possible ways to program OpenType features. There is a description of features such as Contextual Ligatures on the Microsoft website.
Very little info there.
FontCreator is pretty smart. It will add a number of standard features automatically, and automatically generate kerning pair classes. However, I prefer to create my own kerning pair classes. It is more work, and I may make mistakes that I need to debug, but it gives me more control.
Yes, I learned that much fairly quickly, too, that it's much better to do your own classes/kerning, rather than autokerning. It's a nice feature to have, though, if for some reason you just wanted to whiz off a font super-fast or something, and didn't care much about how "perfect" the kerning was.
I learnt some stuff by opening professional fonts and looking at the code, and other stuff by trial and error, or by reading the forum and asking questions. I learnt some things from the TypeDrawers Forum, where there are several professional type designers who use other software like Fontographer.
I started on Fog (as it was affectionately called back when it was "the" font software to get -- before FC) ;) and all the hair-pulling I went through with learning that gave me a good head start when I first got FC, as there's much that was quite similar.

I've learned SO much since then, though -- learning how to do ligatures (so simple now!) and now these contextual alts is way ahead of where I was back with Fog, but I learned it all basically via this forum, by asking "How do you do this?" and not via the help files.

Also, from Erwin...
Erwin Denissen wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:30 am The FontCreator documentation is indeed not very extensive on this subject, but the backtrack is used in an example here:
OpenType Designer - Chained Context
Well, that page is interesting (for me, since I'm trying to learn about this stuff), but at the same time a bit confusing, or not quite clear.

Like, the first paragraph there says: "There are two Chained Context lookups, one for positioning and the other for substitutions. They will perform the substitution tables if a match is found for the combination of backtrack, input, and lookahead."

Even as I'm trying to learn this, and don't quite have a grasp of this yet, I know that's not entirely accurate -- because the substitution that I did already, for those "ender" glyphs, didn't make use of "the combination of backtrack, input, and lookahead," but only input and lookahead.

In any case, I suppose if I just give up (for the time being) on the idea of actually "understanding" what I'm doing, and what the definition of each and every word might mean, what I really want to know is simply how to do what I want to do.

And so back to my question-of-the-day (or yesterday), I've now got "ender" glyphs showing up nicely, and know how to add in more -- but I can't figure out how to go about adding in a second, separate thing to do my "beginner" letters ((or "starter" letters -- is there another word for the first letter of a word???). I tried various things last night, like just adding in a second Chaining Context, but when I do that it seems I can't add in my @LATIN class (with all my latin characters) because, I'm assuming, I used it already in the other Chaining Context.

Or I don't know what the heck is happening, because I have no idea what I'm doing.

So I guess that's basically my question. I've done my "enders," those are all going fine, but how do I add in an additional one for my "beginners" (or whatever)?
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Erwin Denissen »

Did you take another look at the link I provided in my first reply?
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

Erwin Denissen wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:37 pm Did you take another look at the link I provided in my first reply?
I did take a look, read the whole thing -- but I gather I should go back for another look, I must've missed something (or forgotten what was there).

I'm just waking up now (at 2:30pm) -- I've been pulling all-nighters at this! Got a few things to do, but I'll indeed take another look there and get back to you. :)
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Re: Need help with Handwriting Font

Post by Psymon »

Okay! Never mind my last reply -- I got it! And once I got it, I couldn't believe how dumb I've been, how much head-scratching and hair-pulling I went through, when the solution seems so simple to me now. :shock:

With that said, though, I noticed in that other thread that the guy had a "ChainingContextBetween" one -- is that for swapping letters in the middle of words, I gather?

I was wondering about that, actually. I have my lowercase "t," with a rather long crossbar, but it intersects with where the dot is on the "i."

Can I set up a substitution so that if an "i" is adjacent -- on either side -- of a "t" then it gets swapped out for an "i" with the dot up a bit higher?

I know how to do substitutions for first and last letters in a word now, but I don't know how to do something in the middle of a word like that.

(If perchance you want to download/try out the latest version of my font, you can do so via the links in my first/original post here. I've got a bunch of "ender" glyphs now, but for "beginner" glyphs I only have an "s" and "w" so far.)
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