Help with ligatures, etc.

[MikeW]

Yes, I wrote I would use the PUA for the rr lig.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Is that all the "extra" characters that one can add in? Only 17? You can't add in any more than that?

There are 21 defined in the Ligature Collection. Another 66 are defined in the Discretionary Ligatures.

Code: Select all

42802-42809,42812,42813,42830,42831,42848,42849,61124,61125,61129-61131,61133-61136,61143-61148,61150,61151,61152,61363-61374,61378-61390,61392,64256-64262

There are some more in Latin Extended-D, which are not in the Private Use Area.

[Psymon]

Yes, I wrote I would use the PUA for the rr lig.

Okay, let me try putting my question another way. You guys taught me how to add in 17 extra glyphs.

What if I had more that I wanted to add in -- like, say, 100 or something (just to throw a number out there)? Or is 17 the maximum "extra" glyphs that I can add in, and that's it (at least as far as FontCreator goes)?

In that regard, I do have OTF fonts that indeed have hundreds of glyphs -- like, for example, fancy calligraphy fonts, where each and every single letter (lower and uppercase) have all kinds of variants.

I'm not trying to do that, though. What I would like to do -- if it's possible -- is add in all those same ligatures that FontCreator has specified those 17 extra slots for, but then also add in more (like that one for my "rr" lig), in addition to those.

Is that not possible? Or, if it is, then how?

[Psymon]

Is that all the "extra" characters that one can add in? Only 17? You can't add in any more than that?

There are 21 defined in the Ligature Collection. Another 66 are defined in the Discretionary Ligatures.

Oops! Ignore my last reply -- I only just saw this latest reply of your, Bhikkhu!

Okay, I think I need a nap (it's 2:00am here), but I'll try that out whenever I'm up again. Thanks!

[Psymon]

My apologies for my multiple replies here. I couldn't resist trying this out before nodding off, but I don't seem to be getting the results that I should be.

There are 21 defined in the Ligature Collection.

Okay, I think I see how I miscounted that before, and only thought I was getting 17 "extra" glyphs -- there were a few already there when I first created my font. Or something. I'm not sure, but I can now count 21 of those "extra" glyphs PLUS a couple more (fi and fl) that were there when I first created my font. I don't understand why these latter two ligs aren't included in this Lig Collection, but whatever.

But this next bit doesn't seem to be working correctly...

Another 66 are defined in the Discretionary Ligatures.

Code: Select all

42802-42809,42812,42813,42830,42831,42848,42849,61124,61125,61129-61131,61133-61136,61143-61148,61150,61151,61152,61363-61374,61378-61390,61392,64256-64262

Okay, the math isn't working out here for me -- I'm not getting 66 more glyphs if I add in those numbers you have there.

With the additional glyphs you had me add in the other day, my font has 257 characters. When I add in these new numbers that you just gave me -- if that's supposed to give me 66 more -- then I should have a total of 257+66=323.

But I don't. I end up with only 303.

Okay, now I think I'll go for a nap -- I have a headache.

[Alfred]

But this next bit doesn't seem to be working correctly...

Another 66 are defined in the Discretionary Ligatures.

Code: Select all

42802-42809,42812,42813,42830,42831,42848,42849,61124,61125,61129-61131,61133-61136,61143-61148,61150,61151,61152,61363-61374,61378-61390,61392,64256-64262

Okay, the math isn't working out here for me -- I'm not getting 66 more glyphs if I add in those numbers you have there.

With the additional glyphs you had me add in the other day, my font has 257 characters. When I add in these new numbers that you just gave me -- if that's supposed to give me 66 more -- then I should have a total of 257+66=323.

But I don't. I end up with only 303.

Those ranges add up to 65 for me. But that's only a shortfall of 1, not 20, so there must be something else going on here.

[Psymon]

Those ranges add up to 65 for me. But that's only a shortfall of 1, not 20, so there must be something else going on here.

Okay, just as an experiment, I started a whole new project, just totally blank (essentially).

For starters, on the left it says that there's 236 glyphs.

Then I add in the lig collection, i.e....

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61125, 61128-61136, 61145-61148, 64256-64262

...and now I have 255 glyphs. Then I add in all those other discretionary ligs, i.e....

Code: Select all

42802-42809,42812,42813,42830,42831,42848,42849,61124,61125,61129-61131,61133-61136,61143-61148,61150,61151,61152,61363-61374,61378-61390,61392,64256-64262

..and now I have 301 glyphs.

Don't ask me how I have 2 less than with the other font that I am, in fact, actually working on!

If things aren't adding up as they should, is there a bug in the program, perhaps? Don't ask me, this "number thing" is over my head -- I mean, I know they're referencing the mapping of the slots for each character (or whatever the correct wording for that is), but I'm just copying/pasting here, and doing as I'm told. I could never have come up with those "numbers" on my own, that's for sure.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

If a character already exists in the font it won't be added again. Ligatures fi and fl are in a default new font already. There is some overlap in the Transform Scripts. Use the Validate button on the dialogue to count the number of characters that will be added.

[Psymon]

If a character already exists in the font it won't be added again. Ligatures fi and fl are in a default new font already. There is some overlap in the Transform Scripts.

Well, it's all so confusing to me -- and in a way it's moot, really, as I don't foresee (currently) the need for that many extra glyphs anyway. I just thought perhaps it might indeed be a bug or something in the software -- wouldn't be the first time that I've brought something like that to peoples' attention -- and that's mainly why I mentioned it. And also just to try to understand what's going on myself, of course.

Incidentally, in adding in those extra glyphs, I didn't use any "transform scripts," I simply used the Insert -> Character route. Is there a difference? The latter way (the way I did it) seemed to accomplish it just fine, never mind seemed easier, i.e. less clicks to get where you're trying to get to.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

The latter way (the way I did it) seemed to accomplish it just fine, never mind seemed easier, i.e. fewer clicks to get where you're trying to get to.

Only because I told you the character codes to insert. If you had to find them out from the Insert Character dialogue, you might still be searching.

The transform scripts contain a list of the code-points.

[Psymon]

Only because I told you the character codes to insert. If you had to find them out from the Insert Character dialogue, you might still be searching.

The transform scripts contain a list of the code-points.

Aha. I was just about to write back saying that -- once again -- I couldn't find where on earth you found these "lists of code points," and fiiiiiiiinally I found them!

For future reference, if anyone ever comes here down the road and asks this same question, then copy/paste the following instructions (which I really wish you'd given me way back at the beginning of this thread)...

----------------------------------------------------

Go under Tools -> Glyph Transformer.

Under "Characters and Glyphs," select "Insert Characters."

Then, on the right-hand side you'll see what looks like a little yellow file folder, and if you hover your cursor over it you'll see a tooltip that says "Open script" [THIS IS THE PART YOU NEGLECTED TO TELL ME BEFORE and I kept looking in that left-hand list for "Ligature Collection," etc!] and then from there you choose the script you want to use (whether that be "Ligature Collection," or "Discretionary Ligatures," or whatever else).

----------------------------------------------------

No offense, but I actually shared this thread with a professional type designer friend of mine, just to get his take on the discussion here. He's on Mac, and uses Fontlab for his work and isn't familiar with FontCreator and wasn't able to help me, but he read the entire series of posts here from beginning to end, and was as flabbergasted as I've been with the really quite overly-confusing responses that I've been getting to what have been quite simple, straightforward questions. As I said to him, too, it's been like asking where the Louvre Museum is, and instead of getting the answer "Paris," I'm given the longitude and latitude coordinates -- or, indeed, given the longitude but not the latitude.

I really do hope you'll take that in the spirit that it's meant -- if someone asks a question, just answer the damn question, don't give them "PhD-level" answers that are way over the person's expertise level, and just keep it simple and straightforward, with step-by-step instructions on how to do it (without skipping over steps).

And with that said, and with my due and most genuine respect (sincerely), once again thank you! After all this, all this back-and-forth, I've finally found the answer that I was looking for with my very first post here.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

I do have the pro version, but I couldn't find any script for "Ligature Collection." Do you mean by going under Tools -> Glyph Transformer?

That's what I meant. Click the folder icon to open existing scripts. I don't recall if Ligature Collection is included with a default installation.

[Psymon]

I do have the pro version, but I couldn't find any script for "Ligature Collection." Do you mean by going under Tools -> Glyph Transformer?

That's what I meant. Click the folder icon to open existing scripts. I don't recall if Ligature Collection is included with a default installation.

Aha (once again).

Well, pardon me if I came across as a bit snarky, but I guess that wasn't clear to me before. When you said to click on the folder icon, I interpreted that to mean expand the "tree" on the left there (where it says "Characters and Glyphs" -- my eyes were looking up to the top-left, where one would generally see things like "open file," or "open folder," etc., not over on the right. I honestly kept thinking that I was in totally the wrong place (wrong dialog box) as a result of that -- or, at least, just couldn't seem to make sense of it all.

If that was my "bad," well, I'll take that.

Anyway, once again I hope I wasn't too harsh, and hope my comments were taken in the spirit they were meant -- and again, thank you so much for all your help!

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Well, pardon me if I came across as a bit snarky, but I guess that wasn't clear to me before.
...
Anyway, once again I hope I wasn't too harsh, and hope my comments were taken in the spirit they were meant -- and again, thank you so much for all your help!

I think you may not realise that I don't work for High-Logic, and provided a lot of detailed help in my free time. I did a lot of the development and testing on Complete Composites and Transform scripts, so I know how it's designed to work.

The truth is that what you're trying to do is not for the novice user, and there is a lot to learn. If you don't have a reasonable working knowledge of how OpenType features work, the chances are you will waste a lot of time learning from your mistakes.

The video tutorials have no sound, so the only way is to work through them is by using the pause button and reading the text. Writing tutorials and documentation takes a lot of time, and if people don't even read it before complaining, it only discourages me from writing better documentation that would be a waste of even more of my precious free time.

I have my own work to do. You can download my free fonts to see how they are constructed, or open any commercial font like Gabriola or Calibri to see how much work the font designers have done.

[Psymon]

I think you may not realise that I don't work for High-Logic, and provided a lot of detailed help in my free time. I did a lot of the development and testing on Complete Composites and Transform scripts, so I know how it's designed to work.

Actually, I had just assumed that you didn't work for them -- but then you said something here in this thread (I forget what, off-hand) that left me thinking that perhaps you did, but I guess now I know you don't.

I do realize that you have been an important part of the community here, though! When I just recently came to sign up for this forum (to ask my questions), I discovered that I already had an account here -- I'd totally forgotten about it, but many years ago I was on here... and, surprise, surprise, you'd helped me out all those years ago, too.

The truth is that what you're trying to do is not for the novice user, and there is a lot to learn. If you don't have a reasonable working knowledge of how OpenType features work, the chances are you will waste a lot of time learning from your mistakes.

Actually, I know that there's a lot more that I can (and no doubt probably should) learn about type design (and FontCreator), but I am actually starting to feel that I'm getting to the point that I can accomplish at least what I want to -- if only for the time being. There are a couple of issues that I've seen come up in my font that I know I need to resolve, but I think I know how to do that now -- I just haven't gotten around to trying to sort those out yet.

And one other thing that I'll need to learn is fixing errors that I might discover when I validate my font -- but I'm not that far yet, and while I know there will be a learning curve at that point, too, hopefully the help files and/or whatever tutorials out there (including yours) will help me with that.

Of course, I don't mean to seem over-confident in my knowledge and abilities -- I do realize that there's a LOT to learn for me still -- but I've been having quite a bit of fun with this blackletter font, and things are going along much more smoothly now, thanks to this thread.

And so, with that said, please let me apologize once more if I was overly-harsh in any way, and thanks very much once again, too, for all your help!