Add Support for Math Tables

 Posts: 10
 Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:42 am
Add Support for Math Tables
Put this in the "THEY WANT WHAT" hat. http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/ ... rdedition
section 6.3.6
section 6.3.6

 Top Typographer
 Posts: 8743
 Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:28 am
 Location: Seven Kings, London UK
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
I think you will need to be more specific for anyone to know what it is that you want implemented in FontCreator.

 Posts: 10
 Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:42 am
Re: 'MATH'
The advanced table 'MATH' used for displaying formulas or equations.

 Top Typographer
 Posts: 2001
 Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:41 pm
 Location: Worcestershire, England
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
I have been having a look at section 6.3.6 of the document.
That looks like being great fun.
I remember back in the 1960s when Monotype brought out their 4line mathematics system for metal type and I would have just loved to have had a go at that.
There were things like overhanging tangs and recommending using a harder type metal for casting when using them.
Yet, for the MATH table in OpenType here in 2014.
I am wondering how, for the final result of a printed page having a mathematical expression or a mathematical equation printed upon it, who needs to do what.
For example, what would HighLogic need to do, what would a font designer need to do and what would the end user of the font need to do.
Also, what application software would be needed so that the end user could have some software in order to typeset the mathematical expression or mathematical equation?
Do we need to campaign elsewhere about that, such as in the Serif forum?
William Overington
11 July 2014
That looks like being great fun.
I remember back in the 1960s when Monotype brought out their 4line mathematics system for metal type and I would have just loved to have had a go at that.
There were things like overhanging tangs and recommending using a harder type metal for casting when using them.
Yet, for the MATH table in OpenType here in 2014.
I am wondering how, for the final result of a printed page having a mathematical expression or a mathematical equation printed upon it, who needs to do what.
For example, what would HighLogic need to do, what would a font designer need to do and what would the end user of the font need to do.
Also, what application software would be needed so that the end user could have some software in order to typeset the mathematical expression or mathematical equation?
Do we need to campaign elsewhere about that, such as in the Serif forum?
William Overington
11 July 2014

 Top Typographer
 Posts: 2001
 Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:41 pm
 Location: Worcestershire, England
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
I found the following on the web.William wrote: I remember back in the 1960s when Monotype brought out their 4line mathematics system for metal type and I would have just loved to have had a go at that.
http://ultrasparky.org/school/pdf/Rhati ... e_math.pdf
I found it convenient to download a copy and view it offline using Adobe Reader, using
View
Page Display
Single Page View
within Adobe Reader.
Also the following thread.
http://typophile.com/node/71679
William Overington
12 July 2014

 Posts: 10
 Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:42 am
Re: 'MATH'
Well, FontCreator could implement the 'MATH' table by presenting the editable data in a window. This way one could
edit those fields and see how there formulas are displayed using the fonts glyph's with Office Word. A tweaking process.
The number of fonts using the 'MATH' table is very low. I suspect the reason for this is the lack of knowledge. Given the
the proper tools, a font can be made better.
The previous link for the ISO OpenFont Format is not yet in the OpenType Specification, however, I believe it will be
incorporated soon.
Whats being used now: MATH_Table_Design_Plus_Features_06.doc. See the upload Attachment. Oops that did not work.
"The file is to big, maximum allowed size is 512 KiB". KiB? Anyway the file size is 1088 KB. Compressed 895 KB. How do I post it here?
edit those fields and see how there formulas are displayed using the fonts glyph's with Office Word. A tweaking process.
The number of fonts using the 'MATH' table is very low. I suspect the reason for this is the lack of knowledge. Given the
the proper tools, a font can be made better.
The previous link for the ISO OpenFont Format is not yet in the OpenType Specification, however, I believe it will be
incorporated soon.
Whats being used now: MATH_Table_Design_Plus_Features_06.doc. See the upload Attachment. Oops that did not work.
"The file is to big, maximum allowed size is 512 KiB". KiB? Anyway the file size is 1088 KB. Compressed 895 KB. How do I post it here?

 Top Typographer
 Posts: 8743
 Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:28 am
 Location: Seven Kings, London UK
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
7Zip *.7z format might be smaller, but probably not small enough to meet the forum's limit.Keith Harris wrote:"The file is to big, maximum allowed size is 512 KiB". KiB? Anyway the file size is 1088 KB. Compressed 895 KB. How do I post it here?
Just cut the bloat and save a file with the important bits. My guess is that this is nothing to do with FontCreator. Probably what you need is to write an OpenType script to position glyphs where you want them, but without spending many hours researching the topic I could not be sure.
I was hoping that you had already done that research, and could explain in simple terms what is needed.
FontCreator now supports most OpenType GPOS features for Complex Scripts, and Maths formula probably don't need anything special.

 Moderator
 Posts: 8800
 Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 12:41 am
 Location: Bilthoven, The Netherlands
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
We know just a little about this Math proposal from Microsoft, but I'm not sure the effort to support it will pay off.

 Posts: 10
 Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:42 am
Re: 'MATH'
GPOS. Not an option. For example, in the v6.0 Unicode block "Mathematical Operators" there are just 255 glyphs. To cover
cover 255 different combinations you would need factorial 255! = 3.350850684 E+504 entries. Or so I think. Now the
MATH table is a mechanism in which a series of glyphs in a formula are formatted for proper display. That my understanding. Hope this helps and does not confuse anyone. If I'm wrong, tell me and I'll shut up.
cover 255 different combinations you would need factorial 255! = 3.350850684 E+504 entries. Or so I think. Now the
MATH table is a mechanism in which a series of glyphs in a formula are formatted for proper display. That my understanding. Hope this helps and does not confuse anyone. If I'm wrong, tell me and I'll shut up.

 Posts: 10
 Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:42 am
Re: 'MATH'
Just a little more for clarity. Abstract conceptualization. That's how my mind works. GPOS: glyph vs glyph. MATH: box vs box. You tell MATH the range of glyphs that can put into the box and the "display engine" will put that glyph in the box. So if I want the capital letter 'A' in a formula superscript positions box, the "display engine" will put 'A' there. MATH manipulates boxes. I think the caveat here is the fonts design of the letter 'A' for small point sizes. No smaller than 12pt. Does this make sense? All of the above is my view of how it is. Constructive comments appreciated, all others go fish.

 Top Typographer
 Posts: 2001
 Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:41 pm
 Location: Worcestershire, England
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
Well, recently HighLogic added into FontCreator the facility to add OpenType COLR and CPAL tables to a font being produced using FontCreator. Those tables are for producing colour fonts.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:My guess is that this is nothing to do with FontCreator.
Similarly, HighLogic could, if HighLogic so chooses, add into FontCreator the facility to add an OpenType MATH table to a font being produced using FontCreator.
Whether HighLogic chooses to do that is a decision for HighLogic: my post is to point out the technology situation.
Nevertheless, those of us who think that adding into FontCreator the facility to add an OpenType MATH table to a font being produced using FontCreator is a good idea could continue to discuss the topic in this thread and try to figure out the design of the dialogue panels.
William

 Top Typographer
 Posts: 8743
 Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:28 am
 Location: Seven Kings, London UK
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
It's not even worth discussing since Erwin already said that it's unlikely to be profitable.
HighLogic, like any business, has to make money to survive.
Use something like OpenOffice's Symbol Generator or a dedicated program like Math Type to create maths symbols.
HighLogic, like any business, has to make money to survive.
Use something like OpenOffice's Symbol Generator or a dedicated program like Math Type to create maths symbols.

 Top Typographer
 Posts: 2001
 Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:41 pm
 Location: Worcestershire, England
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
Erwin Denissen wrote:We know just a little about this Math proposal from Microsoft, but I'm not sure the effort to support it will pay off.
That is not what Erwin wrote: that is a paraphrasing that does not necessarily have exactly the same meaning.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:It's not even worth discussing since Erwin already said that it's unlikely to be profitable.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ?q=pay+off
Well, if some of the people reading this thread produce what amounts to a proposed manual for using the MATH feature within FontCreator, complete with illustrations of the dialogue panels, then maybe that would help reduce greatly the cost of implementing the feature.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:HighLogic, like any business, has to make money to survive.
I often have concerns when advanced features for something are either not available or available only within very expensive products.
So I feel that the goal of having this specialist advanced feature available in FontCreator is worth trying to achieve, so that the feature becomes available to many people not just to people who are very rich or who work for an organization that can afford very expensive products.
Thank you for the links.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Use something like OpenOffice's Symbol Generator or a dedicated program like Math Type to create maths symbols.
William Overington
14 July 2014

 Moderator
 Posts: 8800
 Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 12:41 am
 Location: Bilthoven, The Netherlands
 Contact:
Re: 'MATH'
We've added it to our todo list, but right now we have other things with a higher priority on the list. If more people let us know about the importance of Math support, we likely put it higher on the todo list.