Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

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William
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William »

Complex discussion split from How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

I am trying to understand the problem that is trying to be solved in the other thread, thus far I have only made a little progress with my learning of this topic.

[Start of Supplementary note of 1 October 2015]

The above line was not written by me. It has been edited by a moderator from what I wrote. What I wrote is below.

I make this note so as to keep the correct historical record.

Please note the timestamps on the posts in this thread as some of them have been extracted from the original thread by a moderator and so the posts in the two threads are not now in the same chronological order. This is not a big issue, yet I feel that such a change should be noted so as to avoid any possible confusion.

Please note that I am not objecting to the splitting of the threads, I am just saying that when something is changed the changes should be clearly stated rather than changing an author's words so as to retrospectively change the meaning.

[End of Supplementary note of 1 October 2015]

I am trying to understand the problem that is trying to be solved in this thread, thus far I have only made a little progress with my learning of this topic.

Here is an issue that I have been trying to understand, expressed using an analogy as that is the only way that I can think of to explain what I mean.

----

Suppose that I wish to produce a png graphic file and then use that png graphic file.

I need to use a software package such as Microsoft Paint or Serif DrawPlus.

I draw the picture that I want within that software package and then I export the picture as a png file.

The png file is thus separate from the software package used to produce it.

One way that I can use the png file in a web page by uploading it to a web server and then referencing it from an html file.

Another way that I can use the png file is to include it s an illustration within a pdf file.

----

Suppose that I want to produce a Tirhuta keyboard and then use that Tirhuta keyboard.

What software package do I need to produce it.

Do I export a file or what?

Is the keyboard that has been produced separate from the software used to produce it.

If it is in a file, what do I need to do to use it? For example, if I produce an ordinary TrueType font file then to use the font file I need, on this PC computer, to copy the font file into the Windows font directory (that is, I need to install the font) and then I can use the font from within a software package such as Microsoft WordPad or Serif PagePlus.

Having done whatever I need to install it, how do I use it? For example, is it that pressing keys on this English keyboard that Tirhuta characters would appear on the screen or is their an on-screen keyboard used with a mouse being clicked?

If I have installed it, and used it, how do I get back to just using an ordinary English keyboard again?

----

William
Last edited by William on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William »

As the script is Tirhuta there appear to be several problems that need to be addressed, largely due to the historical way that Unicode has developed and the present state of software support for characters other than those for mainstream Western European languages.

1. The code points are not in the Basic Multilingual Plane. Which software packages can deal with this? The only one that I have is WordPad, that I can use for ordinary characters.

2. Tirhuta has characteristics of many Indian languages, namely the virama and possibly ligatures and glyph reordering. What facilities are needed for that?

3. Regarding a font for Tirhuta. What special facilities are needed, if any? If some special facilities are needed, does FontCreator have them at present?

4. If a font for Tirhuta can be made, how can it be used: what software packages would do what is necessary?

William
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William »

> Do you have glyphs?

That is a very interesting question.

I am not an expert on Indian typography so the following might need correcting by someone more knowledgeable.

It seems to be that for languages from India that there are often more glyphs needed than are specified in the Unicode Standard, simply because those unlisted glyphs are a sort of ligature form, for each of those combinations that are used for the particular script, of the general form

(consonant with inherent a)(virama)(consonant with inherent a) -> (ligature with inherent a)

It seems that the Unicode Standard does not display the ligature glyphs, because the ligature glyphs do not each have their own code point.

So the question arises as to where one can find designs for the ligature glyphs.

Also, where can one find the rules as to which ligatures are used in the Tirhuta script and as to which ligature glyph arises from which sequence of consonants..

In the days of hand set metal type each ligature glyph would have been made as a piece of metal type and the person setting the type would have picked the piece of metal type from the typecase.

William
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Marcel »

> Before we overload Roshan with any more information, I suggest waiting for a response to see what he understood so far.

Thanks for the acknowledgment, however I believe that for so complex a matter, I've been still pretty unclear and absconse. Si I'll do my best to complete towards some handsome overview and background-awareness. On that basis, Roshan will be more able to decide what steps to undertake next.

Since You are creating a keyboard layout for a relatively newly encoded script, let me ask you a few questions, just for you. Are you acting on behalf of the Government or of your national Standards Body? Or are you a scholar or a priest and wish to use the keyboard for your editorial work and publishing? Will you share your keyboard layout with colleagues and friends, or make it available on-line to all your compatriots? It will surely become a great success and be potentially used by 35 million people. This brings great responsibility. Therefore, depending on your role and scope, appropriate means may widely differ.

Typically, keyboard layouts start being created in a very pragmatic approach, and only after a period of intense and widespread use, certain questions about ergonomics and optimization are raised, at a point where habits are already taken and changes are hard to push through. On the other hand, nowadays, new keyboard layouts are seldom created entirely from scratch---as Richard W reminds us above---and have to deal with existing hardware, and even with existing keycap engravings. Therefore it would be appropriate to settle some issues beforehand, to streamline the development and release that will take place hereafter.

I guess that when actually typing on a computer, you are using Devanagari and English. Bengali is said to be close to Tirhuta. All these layouts ship with Windows, and Iʼve opened them in the MSKLC to get a slight idea of how things may work. From thereon I understand that when implementing Tirhuta on keyboard, you may wish to stick with—or even be forced to conform to—the Devanagari keyboards that you are actually using in desktop publishing. Iʼm not very sure to be right, but thatʼs the way things look today to my limited understanding.

Then, yesterday I based part of my suggestions on the widespread use of Windows. For Mac OS X you already got advice from the e-mail that William kindly quoted above. For tablets on iOS or Android, as well as all current OSes, Tavultesoft  Keyman is the ideal solution, as it allows for *one* creation in one single development environment, that is compiled into the different formats by one software package.

If you would like to just update your PC on Windows with the required Tirhuta keyboard layout, you would probably get the job done by loading either the Bengali or the Devanagari or another fitting Indic layout into MSKLC and replace the characters with the matching Tirhuta ones. MSKLC supports SMP characters on both Base and Shift shift states, where normally it automatically converts the Unicode code point to the corresponding surrogates pair, that is added in the so-called ligature table. This would work on AltGr shift states as well, but unfortunately there is an admitted bug which prevents MSKLC from doing so, and that should be fixed in the next version, for which the specifications already exist but that is not likely to be issued within a useful delay.

That does not hinder to place SMP characters in these shift states, by editing the KLC source file in a text editor like Notepad++. However my test run doesnʼt work, I tested the first Tirhuta character, U+11480, and it is not converted to U+D805 and U+DC80 on either shift state, let alone that Devanagari diacritics display as a blank in the layout display of MSKLC, and that when you edit KLC files in your text editor, you are bothered with incorrect tabs and offset tables.

So I suggest to drop this and make your own spreadsheet tables, where you know what you have and that you have to paste the surrogates pairs from the calculated columns in the NamesList extract. Iʼm glad to share a workbook at the following URL:
http://bit.ly/1PLdnwh_Tirhuta_0
Iʼve specially derived it from my French one which I use for French keyboard layouts. You will already see the ligature table for up to sixteen code units per entry, the allocation table with up to eight useful shift states per virtual key and including the numerical keypad. To complete, you may download my last French C sources in the folder available at dispoclavier.com where all comments are in English (but some of them are too much, theyʼll have to be updated, as well as the whole layout!), and where you see how the tables are inserted and what values to set as parameters. For Tirhuta, just generate a KLC file that you would like as a locale, along with the packaging at your keyboard name (eight characters without any dot), run KbdUTool (that you find in the MSKLC folder) by command prompt to get the C sources, and combine and compile the whole.

If you get some problem Iʼll be happy to search for a solution. Itʼs just that I should finish the French layout Iʼm working on, and that is under deadline because of the on-going keyboard layout standardization process in France. For some additional points you may also wish to check the Unicode Mailing List threads about keyboard layouts, especially over the past four months. But that is not required, as basically you already know all that is needed and which we all tried to sum up here.

All the best,

Marcel
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Marcel »

Sorry I forgot to add that "eight characters" is the *maximum* keyboard name string length, you'll find it in the Help.
Then to map the numpad on other than Base shift state one must add the redefines of the keys, on the pattern:
#undef scancode
#define scancode _EQ{ NUMPADdigit }
This is included in the sources for download on the cited web page.
It seems to be possible to do numpad mapping in MSKLC by including a supplemental header in [MSKLC]\inc, and adding the key mappings in the klc file. For the latter part, instructions are found in this blog post:
But there is no mention of the necessary disabling of legacy directional functionalities on the numpad digit and decimal separator keys as a condition for going beyond the Base shift state mapping on the numpad.

By showing people how to work around the limitations of MSKLC, the Author does not act on behalf of his (ex-)employer, as stated in the disclaimer. But he discussed himself the legal issue in this blog post:
http://www.siao2.com/2011/04/09/10151666.aspx:
It believe it is even technically be a EULA violation, though I can’t imagine it ever being enforced in this case, I mean unless someone tried to sue Microsoft for negative consequences of using a keyboard created by this means. In which case the use of the hack would be a pretty reasonable indemnification of Microsoft here, since someone delved into the land of the specifically unsupported….
We note that this is in no way any legal advice, but a personal opinion. We understand however that Microsoft is aware of the insufficiencies of text entry support, and is in no way about to hinder users in improving their worktool.

There is an interesting blog post as well, which matches also the situation Roshan is dealing with:
I need to mention briefly the Windows Driver Kit. I was unable to test the present version, but the one I use cannot generate WoW64 drivers, and the packaging is complicated (say, unfeasible for people like me), and the sample sources are lacking any ligature table, and the Windows wersioning requires at least three versions per driver for public release not excluding Vista and XP users. I get working 32 bit drivers, to use with the MSKLC package, but not for installation on 64 bit. Using the MSKLC compilers is the only way to get an entirely usable keyboard layout package from C sources, and the more we move up—KbdUTool, then MSKLC—, the less we can have. As the numerous enhancing and debugging tips from MSKLC Author show, using MSKLC out-of-the-box is today out of date. Hence the above.

Marcel
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William »

I am grateful to the people who have posted so far and to the people who are reading this thread.

I have wondered whether to post the following, yet, as this is a friendly forum where people are helpful and are not trying to score points from other people nor be dismissive of people who do not understand everything, I thought that I would post and hope that the posting might be useful.

The thing is, I still do not know where to start or what is wanted as the deliverable over this matter of a keyboard layout.

Now it may be that the person who started the thread now understands what to do, in which case, fine, good and, although intellectually I would quite like to know the answer, if I cannot understand it then I can leave it and continue with other aspects of typography.

Yet we have not yet heard from the original poster again, so I thought that I would write these notes in case they might be helpful.

To me it is as if I have been going along the learning curve and have come to a cliff wall of a mountain and I just do not know what to do. Yet maybe it is quite straightforward to get to the top of the cliff if someone who knows the area shows me a path off to one side of the cliff wall, a path with a gentle gradient. Maybe someone has built a mountain railway and it is just a matter of getting into a comfortable coach and sitting back reading a magazine and arriving at the top of the cliff with ease.

Anyway, I am stuck.

Maybe I am missing some important piece of background knowledge.

On 28 September 2015 I wrote as follows.

==== start of transcript

I am trying to understand the problem that is trying to be solved in this thread, thus far I have only made a little progress with my learning of this topic.

Here is an issue that I have been trying to understand, expressed using an analogy as that is the only way that I can think of to explain what I mean.

----

Suppose that I wish to produce a png graphic file and then use that png graphic file.

I need to use a software package such as Microsoft Paint or Serif DrawPlus.

I draw the picture that I want within that software package and then I export the picture as a png file.

The png file is thus separate from the software package used to produce it.

One way that I can use the png file in a web page by uploading it to a web server and then referencing it from an html file.

Another way that I can use the png file is to include it s an illustration within a pdf file.

----

Suppose that I want to produce a Tirhuta keyboard and then use that Tirhuta keyboard.

What software package do I need to produce it.

Do I export a file or what?

Is the keyboard that has been produced separate from the software used to produce it.

If it is in a file, what do I need to do to use it? For example, if I produce an ordinary TrueType font file then to use the font file I need, on this PC computer, to copy the font file into the Windows font directory (that is, I need to install the font) and then I can use the font from within a software package such as Microsoft WordPad or Serif PagePlus.

Having done whatever I need to install it, how do I use it? For example, is it that pressing keys on this English keyboard that Tirhuta characters would appear on the screen or is their an on-screen keyboard used with a mouse being clicked?

If I have installed it, and used it, how do I get back to just using an ordinary English keyboard again?

==== end of transcript

I once went to an exhibition about computer networks, not knowing anything about them, going to learn.

I found that people on stands would not say much.

Then I said to one of the people that I was a complete beginner and I was there to learn and if they told me something that I already knew that I would not be offended.

After that, using that preamble, people opened up and told me lots, and I learned lots.

The thing is, there seems to be a widespread culture of a fear of telling somebody something that he or she already knows lest the person takes offence and gets indignant and says, "Tell me something I don't already know".

I mention this so as to try to avoid such a situation.

It is often difficult when answering a question, either in a forum or in an advisory situation generally, to assess how much the person asking the question knows already so as to know how to frame a response.

I mention this in the hope that by mentioning it that that may be helpful.

William
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by andjc »

I have just read through the messages, when working on keyboard layouts for many different languages, I have always found that it is necessary to first work out requirements for a new keyboard layout, before choosing an input framework for which to develop the keyboard layout.

Considerations include, but are not limited to: assignment of characters to keys; typing order of characters versus storage order; behaviour of backspace/delete with respect to grapheme clusters; and any other requirements.

Choice of input framework and keyboard layout editing/development tools tends to come out of the requirements.

Ie whether xkb, MSKLC and Ukelele is sufficient

Or whether

Keyman, KMFL, Ekaya, and Keymagic are required

Or whether a table based input system or ime framework is required.

Andrew
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Richard W »

William wrote: Suppose that I want to produce a Tirhuta keyboard and then use that Tirhuta keyboard.

What software package do I need to produce it.

Do I export a file or what?
Keyboards are not as standardised as fonts and image files. There are several different ways of defining a keyboard, but their portability is limited. There are also dramatic differences in the capabilities supported by each format. Tavultesoft Keyman's Version 6.0 format is probably the most widely supported.

If you use MSKLC you will create a DLL packaged in a .msi file - one for each different machine (i386, amd64 and ia64). I would also provide the source file, which has extension .klc. That way, distrusting souls can generate the files for themselves using MSKLC. A keyboard is associated with a language - one can have several different keyboards for a single language. A person with access to an admin account double clicks on the file, and it is automatically installed. It can then be accessed just like the keyboards that come with Windows.

With Keyman for Linux, one can simply distribute the source file (.kmn). If the right packages are installed and the user has chosen to use them, he can just copy the right .kmn file and icon into his ~/.kmfl directory and its icons subdirectory. For shared use, they should be copied to /usr/share/kmfl.

For X it can be more awkward - I haven't worked out a good way of having a private keyboard. To add a Tai Tham keyboard, I fiddled with /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/evdev.xml to declare a new keyboard and I added the detailed definition to the Thai keyboard definitions in /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/th. There's probably a better way of doing it.
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Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by andjc »

Richard,

As you ndicate xkb is tricky and isn't the easiest framework to deal with.

KMFL and Ekata use Keyman 6 source files as indicated.

MSCLC and OSX's .keylayout files (alng with xkb) havesevere limitations but are useful for simpler layouts.

My prefrrence, for script under discussion, is developing for Keyman (Windows, iOS and Android). Then converting and tweaking kmn file to get a dumbed down version for KMFL (Linux) and Ekaya (Windows).

I am also working on a script to convert the kmfl vrsion to Keymagic (Linux, Windows, OSX)

But as I said earlier the starting point should be articilating the keyboard layout requirements.

Andj
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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William »

Thank you both for replying. This is now a lot clearer to me.

So, an important issue here seems to be to learn which computer system Roshan is using. Is that right?

I do not know Roshan's situation.

However, a general question arises in my mind.

Suppose that someone speaks and writes a particular language, yet is not into the technologies of computers beyond using an already set up computer system for producing text files and graphics and maybe installing a font that is available in a forum such as this forum, and that that language is not already supported for a keyboard system and fonts.

That is, the person is literate in his or her own language and just wants to be able to switch on a computer and enter text in his or her own language. Just like someone whose native language is English can do.

How is that person meant to proceed?

I know a little about using packages and so on yet I am not very familiar with operating system issues at all.

There does seem to be a wider issue in regard to support for languages beyond those of Western Europe.

William
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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William »

Richard W wrote: Keyboards are not as standardised as fonts and image files. There are several different ways of defining a keyboard, but their portability is limited. There are also dramatic differences in the capabilities supported by each format.
Would it be a good idea to try to have a standardised keyboard system?

Not to dictatorially stop other ideas, but something that could be quickly applied to produce a keyboard.

I am thinking of the way that with FontCreator one can add extra characters by inserting a string such as the following.

$EE00-$EEFF,$EFFF

FontCreator then gives one exactly what one wants.

I appreciate that for a keyboard it might need a list of Unicode code points each separated by a comma and that there might need to be five, or maybe more, text boxes in which to enter the Unicode code point values, one text box for each line of keys on a keyboard or something like that.

I realize that I am quite probably greatly oversimplifying what is needed, but maybe it could be a new product for High-Logic if Erwin likes the idea. Though I appreciate that High-Logic is a business and that even if Erwin does like the idea then there is the time issue still to be considered.

The output would be a keyboard file of some sort that could be published for others to use, like a font file can be published.

The idea would be that the program would be easy to use and would guide the user through the process, maybe using pictures so that the ability to be able to understand English is not a prerequisite for using the program.

I have no idea how big a job it would be to produce such a program. Maybe something as simple to use already exists.

Yes, I am in eutopian dreaming mode again, but maybe something will result from this dream.

William
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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by Marcel »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Richard W wrote:I think Bhikkhu Pesala has already answered the question of how to create a keyboard for Windows.
I don't think I answered the question at all well as I have no previous experience of this script. Marcel's answer was much more comprehensive.

Before we overload Roshan with any more information, I suggest waiting for a response to see what he understood so far.

Please don't post again in this thread until Roshan replies.

I have moved the advanced discussion to this thread:

Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard
I apologize for not having noticed that I should not have posted further, and I thank for the split-off. I've highlighted above the line I sadly ignored.
I was quite in a hurry, and sorry to be late again.

Thinking about I exactly feel like all other participants, that a spec is needed prior to going forth.

I already thought about a joint project, where Roshan contributes the specs, and I can do the job for Windows binaries, sources included in the folder.

I believe that that is what Roshan is waiting for, because applying a spec on some 101 characters to preexisting C sources is not a job of one week, but of one day, as I see it now. If the keyboard is a basic one, without complex mappings as I'm doing for French. But this should be but the first stage.

I suggest splitting the project into three stages.
  • 1 Basic layout, facilitating font testing.
    2 Complete layout for Tirhuta.
    3 Bilingual layout, including Tirhuta and English.
I'm waiting for the mapping to do stage 1.
Thanks,

Marcel
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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by William »

Hi Marcel

It is kind of you to offer to help Roshan.

I am not sure what you are wanting from Roshan in the way of a specification.

Could you possibly produce a specification document please with a ? character in each place where you need some information from Roshan or someone else so that gradually a specification can be put together by changing each ? character for some information that you need in order to proceed please?

When I say a specification document, just some text in a post in this thread would be fine.

It is not clear to me exactly what information you need from Roshan.

William
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Re: How to create Tirhuta (Maithili) Keyboard layout

Post by andjc »

Marcel wrote: I suggest splitting the project into three stages.
  • 1 Basic layout, facilitating font testing.
    2 Complete layout for Tirhuta.
    3 Bilingual layout, including Tirhuta and English.
Steps one and two need to really be tackled at the same time for languages using complex scripts.

And step 3 really isn't necessary and adds a level of complexity the layout really doesn't need.

Key information needed is

A) which keys produce which characters or groups of characters
B) is input visually based or logically based?
In this context how does the user expect to type complex grapheme clusters ... and what level of remapping of input is required behind the scences?
C) does backspace delete last inputed character, last stored character, or a grapheme cluster?

I had started work on a template for keyboard layout requirements but haven't had time to finish it yet.
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Re: Creating a Tirhuta Keyboard Layout

Post by Marcel »

William wrote:Suppose that I want to produce a Tirhuta keyboard and then use that Tirhuta keyboard.

What software package do I need to produce it.
That depends much on how performative the keyboard layout should be, and on how many platforms it is to be used.
For a multiplatform solution, Tavultesoft Keyman is the best solution I know. It uses a powerful language, allows for extensions in C and C++, produces files for any current platform including iOS and Android mobile devices with on-screen keyboards, and is constantly updated.

When you personally wish to produce and use a keyboard layout, you can restrain yourself to your PC, and then you only need the OS-related keyboard creating tool. As far as for Windows, it will be good to have a supplemental command script, to run the KbdUTool compilers on C sources instead of running the whole tool on KLC files. There are undue restrictions with that. Less however than when running MSKLC on KLC files, which uses the same KbdUTool and compilers but applies supplemental restrictions. MSKLC Author shows how to overcome some of the most striking restrictions. His very valuable advice is available on his blog at Wordpress:
http://www.siao2.com
William wrote:Do I export a file or what?
You get files, but the process is not called exporting, like in graphic and font applications. You will compile.
William wrote:Is the keyboard that has been produced separate from the software used to produce it.
Yes, but you will need a software to run it when it is made in Keyman Developer, or in KbdEdit. But Tavultesoft offers a Keyman user software for free, that allows to use up to two keyboard layouts at the same time. To use a third one, you will have to uninstall one. But then it is much more interesting to buy a full version, Keyman Desktop.
William wrote:If it is in a file, what do I need to do to use it? For example, if I produce an ordinary TrueType font file then to use the font file I need, on this PC computer, to copy the font file into the Windows font directory (that is, I need to install the font) and then I can use the font from within a software package such as Microsoft WordPad or Serif PagePlus.
If you have a Windows keyboard layout compiled using MSKLC (in whatever way), it will be the same way to use it. You have to install it using the setup.exe or one of the .msi installation files (which are run by the setup equally), and to use it by selecting it in the Language bar or even choosing it as default keyboard layout. All other users may activate it in their respective account, and use it the same way. And the kayboard layout is used in all software that allows for keyboard input.
William wrote:Having done whatever I need to install it, how do I use it? For example, is it that pressing keys on this English keyboard that Tirhuta characters would appear on the screen
Precisely. Because actually, your English keyboard is an English one only because of its keycap engravings and because the computer is set to use the English keyboard driver as default keyboard driver. There is no hard-wired English layout in the keyboard. The information sent by the hardware is somewhat the same all over the world. Then scan codes are mapped to virtual key names, which are mapped to Unicode code units, whether complete characters or surrogates. The keycap engravings only help you to know what is happening in the OS.

This is why you can write Tirhuta using your actual keyboard, by learning what letter and what modifier key to press for each Tirhuta character.
William wrote:or is their an on-screen keyboard used with a mouse being clicked?
There is an on-screen keyboard as well, on Windows (osk.exe) and on Keyman. The Keyman OSK is better in that it shows on each key the letter that is engraved on your hardware, while the Windows OSK does not. And both allow to click with the mouse or trackpad. About the Windows OSK I even know that it has an autocomplete algorithym. Settings are in a right click on the top bar. But it doesn't wholly support Kana, as it does not display the Kana shift states it allows to enter. Keyman is surely better.
William wrote: If I have installed it, and used it, how do I get back to just using an ordinary English keyboard again?
On Wndows this is done in the Language bar, by clicking the language icon or the keyboard icon and choosing English. You may set keyboard shortcuts to switch forth and back,in the Language dialog.

Often keycap labels are used, to convert a given hardware to another layout, facilitating learning. As you know the English layout in touch-typing, you can use the keycaps for Tirhuta. Labels are for sale on the internet, but one probably can print some of them using an Excel spreadsheet or a Word table, and finish the surface somehow.

I'll try to answer your next post.

Marcel
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