Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post questions about type and font design here.
Post Reply
steff_cioro_91
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:47 pm

Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by steff_cioro_91 »

Hello! I am working on a XVI hundred font (Garamond Gros Canon) wich have a variaty of historical and discreationary ligatures....At the time the letter s was written with the long s =( ſ ) that was place at the beginning of each word and in the middle, example= < ſancta ſanctorum > < Quouſque tandem abutere > the only exception the letter long s = ( ſ ) is written with normal s is at the end of each word, example < Luſus ſerius >

My question is wich script can I use in order to have this setting? I tried to add a new command in the "terminal form" (in the Opentype designer scripts) but it doesn't work, but it has a similar comand for the greek final Sigma (σ, ς) wich has the same rules: at the beginning and in the middle of the word <σ> and at the end of the word <ς> <ασυμβίβαστος> aſymbibaſtos

I added a pic in the attachments for reference.

Please help me how to proceed if it is possible, 8) :D
Stefan from Italy
Screenshot 2024-02-08 114620.png
Screenshot 2024-02-08 114620.png (1.26 MiB) Viewed 4762 times
Bhikkhu Pesala
Top Typographer
Top Typographer
Posts: 9892
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:28 am
Location: Seven Kings, London UK
Contact:

Re: Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

You have the right idea. You just need to add an entry to Terminal Forms (fina) for longs > s; and the Historical Forms must precede Terminal forms in the OpenType script.
Terminal form longs.png
Terminal form longs.png (5.03 KiB) Viewed 4754 times
Historical Forms Enabled
historical forms.png
historical forms.png (9.33 KiB) Viewed 4754 times
Historical Forms and Terminal Forms Enabled
terminal forms.png
terminal forms.png (9.58 KiB) Viewed 4754 times
My FontsReviews: MainTypeFont CreatorHelpFC15 + MT12.0 @ Win 10 64-bit build 19045.2486
steff_cioro_91
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:47 pm

Re: Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by steff_cioro_91 »

Hi. Yes I tried.....but it changes only in the middle (long s) ....at the end it does not change with normal s...
Attachments
dsfbgsdfbgsdfg.png
dsfbgsdfbgsdfg.png (150.59 KiB) Viewed 4750 times
Bhikkhu Pesala
Top Typographer
Top Typographer
Posts: 9892
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:28 am
Location: Seven Kings, London UK
Contact:

Re: Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

You have not enabled the Terminal Forms (fina) feature. Both fina and hist need to be enabled.
My FontsReviews: MainTypeFont CreatorHelpFC15 + MT12.0 @ Win 10 64-bit build 19045.2486
MikeW
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by MikeW »

steff_cioro_91 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:48 am Hello! I am working on a XVI hundred font (Garamond Gros Canon) wich have a variaty of historical and discreationary ligatures....At the time the letter s was written with the long s =( ſ ) that was place at the beginning of each word and in the middle, example= < ſancta ſanctorum > < Quouſque tandem abutere > the only exception the letter long s = ( ſ ) is written with normal s is at the end of each word, example < Luſus ſerius >

My question is wich script can I use in order to have this setting? I tried to add a new command in the "terminal form" (in the Opentype designer scripts) but it doesn't work, but it has a similar comand for the greek final Sigma (σ, ς) wich has the same rules: at the beginning and in the middle of the word <σ> and at the end of the word <ς> <ασυμβίβαστος> aſymbibaſtos...
Do note that in most periods of time, a long /s is not used in the middle of a word. For instance, a normal /s is used preceding and followuing an /f.

The fina OT Feature, when setup, can/will only change the final /s. As well, it is a feature that is not broadly supported in and of itself.

One really should use the more broadly supported Chaining Context feature and set "Rules" for the different contexts for when and is an /s changes to a long /s.

If interested, I've attached a paper written for these rules of long /s use.

Mike
Long S Example.pdf
(55.67 KiB) Downloaded 253 times
steff_cioro_91
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:47 pm

Re: Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by steff_cioro_91 »

Hi...how can I set a Chaining Context feature with rules? ( I am still learning the software) My project is set for a revival and wish to be as accurate historicaly as possibile...thanks for the pdf!
MikeW
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by MikeW »

steff_cioro_91 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:13 pm Hi...how can I set a Chaining Context feature with rules? ( I am still learning the software) My project is set for a revival and wish to be as accurate historicaly as possibile...thanks for the pdf!
Just a note. One cannot account for every rule of every period. So I would also suggest reading about the long /s usage as typeset around the period of your revival. Even then, one likely cannot account for every rule. Some usage may then be up to the layout person to catch these instances and manually make usage comply.

Contextual type of OT Features take trial and error. For instance, the order in which rules are processed by layout engines (applications) matters. Which is one reason why not all of the customs of the writing period can be accommodated.

Here are two screen shots. First, a rule from the PDF followed by the context rule that makes the text comply.
Capture_001145.png
Capture_001145.png (19.41 KiB) Viewed 4692 times
Capture_001144.png
Capture_001144.png (72.56 KiB) Viewed 4692 times
I added these rules this morning--for short /s preceding /b, /h, /k, /t. I haven't really retested the font to make sure I didn't break the other rules from being correctly processed. Nor have I tested to ensure I didn't break the ability to also turn on historical ligatures. All this to say, you also need to test, test and test your font in as many applications that purport to support these features.
steff_cioro_91
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:47 pm

Re: Historical and Discretionary Ligatures

Post by steff_cioro_91 »

Oh! thank you! I will try and see results! will post screen then
Post Reply